2 ms·

> you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language

> you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently. "hurt feelings"? I started out mentioning to someone who I assume gets where I'm coming from, because they are not acting entitled and do not find Germans to be unwelcoming, that I don't respect Germans who don't learn the language of countries they move to. I've known a few and I hated their attitude. If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back. I'm just one person, I like open, friendly people. People who just walk past me without even looking at me, talking in English or some other language I still smile at them because that's what I do, and get nothing back. What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting" until people who simply just might by entitled assholes stop being that? Nah. Over it. And do you notice how it's just normal to talk shit about Germans and Germany, but when Germans speak their mind, and say hey wait a second, that's rude, and it would be rude if we did that, too -- that's worth nothing? You wouldn't like to be treated that way. Frankly, if these people, people who can't be arsed to learn German, ever, are so great, maybe I'm just generous for being fine with them being a boon for some other country because as persons, I find them to be bores, the same way and for the same reason I do Germans who act that way. Many native Germans also are bores, but there isn't much that can be done about that. They also don't whine that other Germans should be more accepting of them so it's not a topic. > not wanting to speak the language fluently. Nice try moving the goal posts there. What's under discussion is not learning it at all, not even wanting to. Not "not being good enough" at it.

mstaoru 3mo ago
I think the misunderstanding here might be "skilled people who come to work in Germany for N years" (which Germany sorely needs) vs. "people who immigrate to Germany forever to make it their Sacred Motherland" and bring their grandma and 3 cats. As above comment mentions, N-years people sometimes have circumstances that make language learning difficult. My initial comment proposes to be polite (in my own definition, admittedly) and make effort to include them in conversations (in work environments - you do you in social env), especially when all parties know that all parties can speak perfect English.
mft_ 3mo ago
> If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back. Suggesting that you’re not responsible for your opinions because you don’t have the ultimate power to change the country? Don’t be childish. Maybe if you can’t cope with being disagreed with, stop posting opinions on internet forums? > What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting" until people who simply just might by entitled assholes stop being that? Nah. Over it. Well, you could be the change you want to see? Part of the problem that others are diagnosing in Germany is the attitude of some Germans; and you’re part of that group, no? Accepting this would be a small step forwards. > And do you notice how it's just normal to talk shit about Germans and Germany, but when Germans speak _their_ mind, and say hey wait a second, that's rude, and it would be rude if we did that, too -- that's worth nothing? You wouldn't like to be treated that way. For my part, you’re welcome to speak your mind, but that’s not really the issue. The previous poster and I have both given you evidence-based positions on specific weaknesses that Germany has, and suggested that the government and ultimately the people might want to address them for their own benefit. If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany”, then… eh… there’s not really any point to discussing further. (And you’ve still avoided addressing the well-meaning, informed, constructive criticisms.)
- customguy 3mo ago
  > Well, you could be the change you want to see? Did you just cut off part of that quote just so you can continue to use me as a stand-in for the stereotypical German? I'm warmer and more welcoming to immigrants than they are to me generally. If you don't take my word for that, I sure as fuck won't bother to take your word about what my life is like instead because it's something you can imagine. All of that is a waste of time. I simply said that if you move to a country and don't even want to learn the language, you're an asshole in my opinion, not because of your nationality but because of your character, and we won't be friends. Since you don't tackle that directly, at all, I take it you know there is no reasonable argument to make against that, and for the stuff you make up about me you really don't need me. > If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany” Then maybe instead of being patronizing, to the point of just ignoring what I say, assume there is a good reason for that. Let's call it an inside perspective, a lived experience you don't have access to -- and by the way you conduct yourself, don't want to know about, and never will learn about. Just give me an example of a country treated similarly. I totally assume I'm being biased, but I need an example to work on that, not your armchair analysis of me. It's a simple ask, too. Where are the people demanding the Japanese are to be more inclusive, or whatever? And where is it almost exclusively a conversation between people who are not in or came to that country, without involving "natives" that are considered so problematic? This schizo twilight zone between people coming here from countries most Germans wouldn't dream of moving to posing to their families at home because they "made it" simply by being here, and then complaining that the German nation isn't to their liking? I'm not talking about a few hundred HN expat guys, you can do whatever. I'm talking about immigrants in Germany, period, and that in addition to xenophobic and cold Germans, there's a plenty of entitlement and dickishness among those immigrating. And we have a long and complicated history, we're not even remotely at ease with ourselves, and we're not your jukebox. Don't like the German "personality", that's great, there's plenty of others.

mstaoru 3mo ago

I think the misunderstanding here might be "skilled people who come to work in Germany for N years" (which Germany sorely needs) vs. "people who immigrate to Germany forever to make it their Sacred Motherland" and bring their grandma and 3 cats. As above comment mentions, N-years people sometimes have circumstances that make language learning difficult. My initial comment proposes to be polite (in my own definition, admittedly) and make effort to include them in conversations (in work environments - you do you in social env), especially when all parties know that all parties can speak perfect English.

mft_ 3mo ago

> If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back. Suggesting that you’re not responsible for your opinions because you don’t have the ultimate power to change the country? Don’t be childish. Maybe if you can’t cope with being disagreed with, stop posting opinions on internet forums? > What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting" until people who simply just might by entitled assholes stop being that? Nah. Over it. Well, you could be the change you want to see? Part of the problem that others are diagnosing in Germany is the attitude of some Germans; and you’re part of that group, no? Accepting this would be a small step forwards. > And do you notice how it's just normal to talk shit about Germans and Germany, but when Germans speak _their_ mind, and say hey wait a second, that's rude, and it would be rude if we did that, too -- that's worth nothing? You wouldn't like to be treated that way. For my part, you’re welcome to speak your mind, but that’s not really the issue. The previous poster and I have both given you evidence-based positions on specific weaknesses that Germany has, and suggested that the government and ultimately the people might want to address them for their own benefit. If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany”, then… eh… there’s not really any point to discussing further. (And you’ve still avoided addressing the well-meaning, informed, constructive criticisms.)

customguy 3mo ago
> Well, you could be the change you want to see? Did you just cut off part of that quote just so you can continue to use me as a stand-in for the stereotypical German? I'm warmer and more welcoming to immigrants than they are to me generally. If you don't take my word for that, I sure as fuck won't bother to take your word about what my life is like instead because it's something you can imagine. All of that is a waste of time. I simply said that if you move to a country and don't even want to learn the language, you're an asshole in my opinion, not because of your nationality but because of your character, and we won't be friends. Since you don't tackle that directly, at all, I take it you know there is no reasonable argument to make against that, and for the stuff you make up about me you really don't need me. > If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany” Then maybe instead of being patronizing, to the point of just ignoring what I say, assume there is a good reason for that. Let's call it an inside perspective, a lived experience you don't have access to -- and by the way you conduct yourself, don't want to know about, and never will learn about. Just give me an example of a country treated similarly. I totally assume I'm being biased, but I need an example to work on that, not your armchair analysis of me. It's a simple ask, too. Where are the people demanding the Japanese are to be more inclusive, or whatever? And where is it almost exclusively a conversation between people who are not in or came to that country, without involving "natives" that are considered so problematic? This schizo twilight zone between people coming here from countries most Germans wouldn't dream of moving to posing to their families at home because they "made it" simply by being here, and then complaining that the German nation isn't to their liking? I'm not talking about a few hundred HN expat guys, you can do whatever. I'm talking about immigrants in Germany, period, and that in addition to xenophobic and cold Germans, there's a plenty of entitlement and dickishness among those immigrating. And we have a long and complicated history, we're not even remotely at ease with ourselves, and we're not your jukebox. Don't like the German "personality", that's great, there's plenty of others.