3 ms·

That's like Germans moving to a poor country and being annoying to the waiter, then going "do you want my money or not?" When it comes to respecting someone --

That's like Germans moving to a poor country and being annoying to the waiter, then going "do you want my money or not?" When it comes to respecting someone -- which is what I'm talking about -- that just makes it worse. > Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy Countries don't have aims or ambitions, people in them do. If someone acts entitled and assumes I have to accomodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in, I won't like them, and there won't be much warmth between us. If that dooms the nation, that's totally fine. You don't make friends by blackmail, but by being friendly.

mstaoru 3mo ago
> accomodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in Do expats in Germany walk around with "I've been in Germany X months" clock on their foreheads? :) Of course you learn eventually... some faster than others. And some not fast enough before "maybe I should just work in Switzerland" kicks in.
- mft_ 3mo ago
  The indigenous Swiss have the same attitude; it's just that in the major cities and companies, the concentration of English-speakers is so high, it's not such a problem.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
mft_ 3mo ago
You seem to be completely missing (or avoiding?) the point. It is widely recognised that Germany is one of the most at-risk countries in the world regarding its aging population, low birth-rate, and need for skilled workers for its economy. If one performs a SWOT analysis of Germany from the perspective of a potential skilled immigrant, alongside the undoubted strengths, there are relative weaknesses - e.g. high taxes, awful bureaucracy (especially for outsiders and entrepreneurs), low levels of digitalisation, failing public infrastructure, and a language barrier vs. the otherwise-English-speaking professional world. A rational response to this would be to address each weakness at all levels, from government to culture to individuals, because Germany is in competition with many other countries for the same skilled workers. In short, put a process in place to make Germany the most skilled-immigrant-friendly country in world. And a piece of this process would be to be less intransigent around language - be much more accepting of people who want to settle in Germany and contribute positively to its future but don't want to spend large amounts of time learning a difficult new language which is irrelevant almost anywhere else. > If someone acts entitled and assumes I have to accommodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in, I won't like them, and there won't be much warmth between us. If that dooms the nation, that's totally fine. This is a very odd position: you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently. (If Germany ceases to exist as a meaningful country in a few generations, few will care about speaking German then either.)
- customguy 3mo ago
  > you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently. "hurt feelings"? I started out mentioning to someone who I assume gets where I'm coming from, because they are not acting entitled and do not find Germans to be unwelcoming, that I don't respect Germans who don't learn the language of countries they move to. I've known a few and I hated their attitude. If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back. I'm just one person, I like open, friendly people. People who just walk past me without even looking at me, talking in English or some other language I still smile at them because that's what I do, and get nothing back. What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting" until people who simply just might by entitled assholes stop being that? Nah. Over it. And do you notice how it's just normal to talk shit about Germans and Germany, but when Germans speak their mind, and say hey wait a second, that's rude, and it would be rude if we did that, too -- that's worth nothing? You wouldn't like to be treated that way. Frankly, if these people, people who can't be arsed to learn German, ever, are so great, maybe I'm just generous for being fine with them being a boon for some other country because as persons, I find them to be bores, the same way and for the same reason I do Germans who act that way. Many native Germans also are bores, but there isn't much that can be done about that. They also don't whine that other Germans should be more accepting of them so it's not a topic. > not wanting to speak the language fluently. Nice try moving the goal posts there. What's under discussion is not learning it at all, not even wanting to. Not "not being good enough" at it.
  - mstaoru 3mo ago
    I think the misunderstanding here might be "skilled people who come to work in Germany for N years" (which Germany sorely needs) vs. "people who immigrate to Germany forever to make it their Sacred Motherland" and bring their grandma and 3 cats. As above comment mentions, N-years people sometimes have circumstances that make language learning difficult. My initial comment proposes to be polite (in my own definition, admittedly) and make effort to include them in conversations (in work environments - you do you in social env), especially when all parties know that all parties can speak perfect English.

mstaoru 3mo ago

> accomodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in Do expats in Germany walk around with "I've been in Germany X months" clock on their foreheads? :) Of course you learn eventually... some faster than others. And some not fast enough before "maybe I should just work in Switzerland" kicks in.

mft_ 3mo ago
The indigenous Swiss have the same attitude; it's just that in the major cities and companies, the concentration of English-speakers is so high, it's not such a problem.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

mft_ 3mo ago

You seem to be completely missing (or avoiding?) the point. It is widely recognised that Germany is one of the most at-risk countries in the world regarding its aging population, low birth-rate, and need for skilled workers for its economy. If one performs a SWOT analysis of Germany from the perspective of a potential skilled immigrant, alongside the undoubted strengths, there are relative weaknesses - e.g. high taxes, awful bureaucracy (especially for outsiders and entrepreneurs), low levels of digitalisation, failing public infrastructure, and a language barrier vs. the otherwise-English-speaking professional world. A rational response to this would be to address each weakness at all levels, from government to culture to individuals, because Germany is in competition with many other countries for the same skilled workers. In short, put a process in place to make Germany the most skilled-immigrant-friendly country in world. And a piece of this process would be to be less intransigent around language - be much more accepting of people who want to settle in Germany and contribute positively to its future but don't want to spend large amounts of time learning a difficult new language which is irrelevant almost anywhere else. > If someone acts entitled and assumes I have to accommodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in, I won't like them, and there won't be much warmth between us. If that dooms the nation, that's totally fine. This is a very odd position: you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently. (If Germany ceases to exist as a meaningful country in a few generations, few will care about speaking German then either.)

customguy 3mo ago
> you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently. "hurt feelings"? I started out mentioning to someone who I assume gets where I'm coming from, because they are not acting entitled and do not find Germans to be unwelcoming, that I don't respect Germans who don't learn the language of countries they move to. I've known a few and I hated their attitude. If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back. I'm just one person, I like open, friendly people. People who just walk past me without even looking at me, talking in English or some other language I still smile at them because that's what I do, and get nothing back. What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting" until people who simply just might by entitled assholes stop being that? Nah. Over it. And do you notice how it's just normal to talk shit about Germans and Germany, but when Germans speak their mind, and say hey wait a second, that's rude, and it would be rude if we did that, too -- that's worth nothing? You wouldn't like to be treated that way. Frankly, if these people, people who can't be arsed to learn German, ever, are so great, maybe I'm just generous for being fine with them being a boon for some other country because as persons, I find them to be bores, the same way and for the same reason I do Germans who act that way. Many native Germans also are bores, but there isn't much that can be done about that. They also don't whine that other Germans should be more accepting of them so it's not a topic. > not wanting to speak the language fluently. Nice try moving the goal posts there. What's under discussion is not learning it at all, not even wanting to. Not "not being good enough" at it.
- mstaoru 3mo ago
  I think the misunderstanding here might be "skilled people who come to work in Germany for N years" (which Germany sorely needs) vs. "people who immigrate to Germany forever to make it their Sacred Motherland" and bring their grandma and 3 cats. As above comment mentions, N-years people sometimes have circumstances that make language learning difficult. My initial comment proposes to be polite (in my own definition, admittedly) and make effort to include them in conversations (in work environments - you do you in social env), especially when all parties know that all parties can speak perfect English.