8 ms·

I can add my anecdote to the language barrier points. At work we speak English, everybody speak English all the time, all docs are in English, all meetings are

by mstaoru 3mo ago

I can add my anecdote to the language barrier points. At work we speak English, everybody speak English all the time, all docs are in English, all meetings are in English. There's an occasional German email every now and then but people will switch. When we go to a "team building" retreat, all the same teammates that happily chatted with us expats in English just switch to German 100%, full stop. You can come and stand at the edge of a group chatting in German and they will look at you and continue, knowing you stand there not understanding, without batting an eye.

musha68k 3mo ago
I've been there, same as in Quebec for French but I would see it as a learning opportunity to practice. In Austria I've always made an effort to stay inclusively in English in these settings but it's probably normal to fall back to default language in most countries and cultures especially when the context is not about the work per se.
- mstaoru 3mo ago
  Isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg problem? You cannot join a fluent conversation without being fluent. You cannot become fluent without practicing.
  - musha68k 3mo ago
    You need to listen / interject and show that you are making an effort, then people usually will meet you there and you can even fall back to English again if you have to but then steer back towards target language. Learning opportunities.
moezd 3mo ago
This. And don't forget the occasional refinement meetings during which you think you're making a group decision but your manager and the other senior (both German, speaking German, having spoken in private without your awareness) already decided on many things, even though they acknowledge that you're the more experienced person in the room. So you're treated as a rubber stamp and three months in when you have an objection because clearly you're walking into a sunken cost, will be shown ADRs (in Denglish) basically where everything's already decided in their favour.
suddenlybananas 3mo ago
God forbid people speak the language of their country.
- mstaoru 3mo ago
  It's an international team that is specifically hired this way. I wouldn't expect people switching for me in a bar or in an informal setting, but at work or work-related event, it's common courtesy (to me), especially if you're aware.
adamddev1 3mo ago
Excellent anecdote. I'm not sure if you're making a judgement about their behavior at the team event. I'm an English native speaker, new in Germany, and learning German. I personally find it really annoying and awkward when other foreigners come into German social situations and expect or push them to speak English. - What right do I have as the foreigner to intrude and get them to speak English? - Social life in another language has it's own shared culture, jokes, and social cues. It's not fair or realistic to make people give that all up because some foreigner walked near the circle. - It's my problem that I'm not yet fluent. It's not their problem that they're not speaking English. - Some people are shy about their English skills, and they do not want to be pushed to speak English in front of others, in a group social setting. - If you want exposure and practice, these are the golden opportunities! Take a humble learners position. Be quiet, understand as much as you can, and say what little bits you can, in German, not in English. Then study, study, study as much as you can in your time alone. I hear fellow foreigners bemoaning the fact that they can't speak German yet, but these same people will inadvertently push English into every social situation they walk into. This just doesn't work. If you want to learn the language of the land, you have to let them speak it. I find Germans are incredibly friendly and welcoming, especially when you come in humbly, trying to learn, and don't push everyone to speak English.
- ItsYan 3mo ago
  On the other hand, the Brits will happily switch from their accent/dialect to accommodate a foreigner. No such thing has happened to me in Germany.
  - thevillagechief 3mo ago
    My experience in Scotland says different. Unless the Scots don't count. Or maybe they just can't help their accent.
- mstaoru 3mo ago
  I'm definitely making a judgement :) It is not a social situation, but a work-related event in an international team, where people have varying German language skills (some have almost none, like me). In a true social situation, of course, I will not expect by default a cashier in a shop or a clerk in a bank to speak English to me (though it's appreciated). > understand as much as you can, and say what little bits you can, in German, not in English. Then study, study, study as much as you can in your time alone That's the whole point to add to "why people leave Germany". It's a difficult language and not everyone have time to "study, study, study". It leads to isolation, expat bubble, and leaving.

by mstaoru 3mo ago

musha68k 3mo ago

I've been there, same as in Quebec for French but I would see it as a learning opportunity to practice. In Austria I've always made an effort to stay inclusively in English in these settings but it's probably normal to fall back to default language in most countries and cultures especially when the context is not about the work per se.

mstaoru 3mo ago
Isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg problem? You cannot join a fluent conversation without being fluent. You cannot become fluent without practicing.
- musha68k 3mo ago
  You need to listen / interject and show that you are making an effort, then people usually will meet you there and you can even fall back to English again if you have to but then steer back towards target language. Learning opportunities.

moezd 3mo ago

This. And don't forget the occasional refinement meetings during which you think you're making a group decision but your manager and the other senior (both German, speaking German, having spoken in private without your awareness) already decided on many things, even though they acknowledge that you're the more experienced person in the room. So you're treated as a rubber stamp and three months in when you have an objection because clearly you're walking into a sunken cost, will be shown ADRs (in Denglish) basically where everything's already decided in their favour.

suddenlybananas 3mo ago

God forbid people speak the language of their country.

mstaoru 3mo ago
It's an international team that is specifically hired this way. I wouldn't expect people switching for me in a bar or in an informal setting, but at work or work-related event, it's common courtesy (to me), especially if you're aware.

adamddev1 3mo ago

Excellent anecdote. I'm not sure if you're making a judgement about their behavior at the team event. I'm an English native speaker, new in Germany, and learning German. I personally find it really annoying and awkward when other foreigners come into German social situations and expect or push them to speak English. - What right do I have as the foreigner to intrude and get them to speak English? - Social life in another language has it's own shared culture, jokes, and social cues. It's not fair or realistic to make people give that all up because some foreigner walked near the circle. - It's my problem that I'm not yet fluent. It's not their problem that they're not speaking English. - Some people are shy about their English skills, and they do not want to be pushed to speak English in front of others, in a group social setting. - If you want exposure and practice, these are the golden opportunities! Take a humble learners position. Be quiet, understand as much as you can, and say what little bits you can, in German, not in English. Then study, study, study as much as you can in your time alone. I hear fellow foreigners bemoaning the fact that they can't speak German yet, but these same people will inadvertently push English into every social situation they walk into. This just doesn't work. If you want to learn the language of the land, you have to let them speak it. I find Germans are incredibly friendly and welcoming, especially when you come in humbly, trying to learn, and don't push everyone to speak English.

ItsYan 3mo ago
On the other hand, the Brits will happily switch from their accent/dialect to accommodate a foreigner. No such thing has happened to me in Germany.
- thevillagechief 3mo ago
  My experience in Scotland says different. Unless the Scots don't count. Or maybe they just can't help their accent.
mstaoru 3mo ago
I'm definitely making a judgement :) It is not a social situation, but a work-related event in an international team, where people have varying German language skills (some have almost none, like me). In a true social situation, of course, I will not expect by default a cashier in a shop or a clerk in a bank to speak English to me (though it's appreciated). > understand as much as you can, and say what little bits you can, in German, not in English. Then study, study, study as much as you can in your time alone That's the whole point to add to "why people leave Germany". It's a difficult language and not everyone have time to "study, study, study". It leads to isolation, expat bubble, and leaving.