4 ms·

I directly disagree with this post and take a naturalist approach. People aren't unhappy because they want more; they are unhappy because their basic needs are

I directly disagree with this post and take a naturalist approach. People aren't unhappy because they want more; they are unhappy because their basic needs aren't met. And by needs I don't mean material needs, but basic self realization needs. We actually need very little to be happy, but people now live their lives in way they were not designed to be. As a primordial tribesmen, all people needed were the love and camaraderie of their fellow tribesmen (ie work with close friends), enjoy the thrill of going out on a hunt and being recognized for success (self driven accomplishment and social status), find a mate and raise a family without being a wage slave (adequate free time, no boss), and other aspects of life where you are free to choose. Today's corporate world has none of these simple aspects. You don't get to choose your colleagues and often don't have anything in common with them. Your work is often assigned to you, and both recognition and reward is shifted towards the company or boss. You have a boss. You make money but all your time is taken away. You might argue we are materially better off, but biologically our brains our programmed to be happy in the old tribal way. Some of Paul Graham's essays talk about the same issues.

jamesrcole 14y ago
While I'm no expert on the matter that sounds like an awfully rose-coloured view of the life of a typical "primordial tribesman".
- nicholas73 14y ago
  Yes it is, I'm glossing over what could have robbed the primordial tribesmen of the same satisfaction, such as a dominating chief, subjugation by neighbors, failure to contribute to your tribe and thus be demoted, environmental changes causing a hunter to resort to farming... There were challenges, but generally you had the opportunity to overcome them as the default path. Today the default path does not necessarily lead to self actualization. Many of us who post here happen to want the same thing: freelancing, side project income, small business, start up. This can't simply be a coincidence, and in my view what they have in common is the autonomy and accomplishment needs we have.
- philh 14y ago
  Perhaps, but I recently read something which suggested they (to be precise, Native Americans) really were happier than the European settlers of the time: "All of the white people who joined Indian tribes loved it and refused to go back to white civilization. All the Indians who joined white civilization hated it and did everything they could to go back to their previous tribal lives." http://squid314.livejournal.com/340809.html http://squid314.livejournal.com/340809.html (There's a lot more on the subject than just the bit I quoted.)
tomp 14y ago
I don't think that being recognized for success is a basic human (psychological) need. It certainly isn't mine. Sure, I like to be successful in what I do, but I only need internal recognition for that, i.e. people using something I built and being happy using it, not external (people actually thanking ME for having built it). I think longing for external recognition is a sign of a deeply wounded soul, of a person lacking the most fundamental self-love and self-esteem.
- bcasey 14y ago
  I think you're correct, that internal happiness is incredibly important but being recognized by others is a basic human need. In fact, it's listed in the Esteem portion of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Esteem is one of the primary layers, and within it are both self-esteem and respect from external parties. It's a basic human desire to be accepted and valued by others. If you've gotten over the need to have acceptance by others, that's awesome. However, that doesn't mean it isn't a basic desire.
bcasey 14y ago
I agree with you completely. The simplicity required for a peaceful life is really difficult to find in today's world. Additionally, it's a common misconception that primordial man was a poor wretch that scrounged for food, fought larger predators and generally lived a life in constant fear and hunger. I once read an article on Mark's Daily Apple (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/about-2/who-is-grok/#axzz2ENJ3Acsa http://www.marksdailyapple.com/about-2/who-is-grok/#axzz2ENJ...) that paints quite a different picture of a paleolithic lifestyle. From the article, the paleolithic man, "...leads a life of relative peace, consistent rhythm, adequate sleep, and little stress. There are times of scarcity, to be sure, but his body is adapted to generally weather their strain." As an entrepreneur, my goal is to earn enough to allow me live more simply and get back into the proper rhythm of life. How much money is that? I don't know yet, but the primary goal isn't to get rich, it's to get free.
- nicholas73 14y ago
  I have the same reasoning as you. The number will be whatever amount that generates the income to support your desired lifestyle. This could be in investments or low involvement business income. Thus the number for me is 2.5 million based off of 4% dividend for a 100k income (about single engineer middle class Bay Area only because dividends are taxed lower). Or a number of side businesses that add up to that income.
  - bcasey 14y ago
    I love the idea of "a number of side businesses that add up to that income". Small, simple businesses that generate enough to make the ideal lifestyle possible. That's a strong goal. It's especially good considering your dividend-based alternative. I'm sure you've noticed that dividend stocks are getting hammered right now. :)
    - nicholas73 14y ago
      Yeah, both fortunately and unfortunately I expect myself to be able to sooner build small business income to 100k than amass 2.5 million. Not that either is easy of course. Or even a reasonable expectation. I wouldn't worry about stock price as you hopefully never have to sell a good income payer. But if you are buying, at some point a good dividend payer will fall until it's cheap enough for a good return, ie wait for the next crash. I think the dividend stocks are being sold off now because of uncertainty over tax rules in 2013 for dividends, and also since money has been chasing yield and made those stocks overbought.

jamesrcole 14y ago

While I'm no expert on the matter that sounds like an awfully rose-coloured view of the life of a typical "primordial tribesman".

nicholas73 14y ago
Yes it is, I'm glossing over what could have robbed the primordial tribesmen of the same satisfaction, such as a dominating chief, subjugation by neighbors, failure to contribute to your tribe and thus be demoted, environmental changes causing a hunter to resort to farming... There were challenges, but generally you had the opportunity to overcome them as the default path. Today the default path does not necessarily lead to self actualization. Many of us who post here happen to want the same thing: freelancing, side project income, small business, start up. This can't simply be a coincidence, and in my view what they have in common is the autonomy and accomplishment needs we have.
philh 14y ago
Perhaps, but I recently read something which suggested they (to be precise, Native Americans) really were happier than the European settlers of the time: "All of the white people who joined Indian tribes loved it and refused to go back to white civilization. All the Indians who joined white civilization hated it and did everything they could to go back to their previous tribal lives." http://squid314.livejournal.com/340809.html http://squid314.livejournal.com/340809.html (There's a lot more on the subject than just the bit I quoted.)

tomp 14y ago

I don't think that being recognized for success is a basic human (psychological) need. It certainly isn't mine. Sure, I like to be successful in what I do, but I only need internal recognition for that, i.e. people using something I built and being happy using it, not external (people actually thanking ME for having built it). I think longing for external recognition is a sign of a deeply wounded soul, of a person lacking the most fundamental self-love and self-esteem.

bcasey 14y ago
I think you're correct, that internal happiness is incredibly important but being recognized by others is a basic human need. In fact, it's listed in the Esteem portion of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Esteem is one of the primary layers, and within it are both self-esteem and respect from external parties. It's a basic human desire to be accepted and valued by others. If you've gotten over the need to have acceptance by others, that's awesome. However, that doesn't mean it isn't a basic desire.

bcasey 14y ago

I agree with you completely. The simplicity required for a peaceful life is really difficult to find in today's world. Additionally, it's a common misconception that primordial man was a poor wretch that scrounged for food, fought larger predators and generally lived a life in constant fear and hunger. I once read an article on Mark's Daily Apple (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/about-2/who-is-grok/#axzz2ENJ3Acsa http://www.marksdailyapple.com/about-2/who-is-grok/#axzz2ENJ...) that paints quite a different picture of a paleolithic lifestyle. From the article, the paleolithic man, "...leads a life of relative peace, consistent rhythm, adequate sleep, and little stress. There are times of scarcity, to be sure, but his body is adapted to generally weather their strain." As an entrepreneur, my goal is to earn enough to allow me live more simply and get back into the proper rhythm of life. How much money is that? I don't know yet, but the primary goal isn't to get rich, it's to get free.

nicholas73 14y ago
I have the same reasoning as you. The number will be whatever amount that generates the income to support your desired lifestyle. This could be in investments or low involvement business income. Thus the number for me is 2.5 million based off of 4% dividend for a 100k income (about single engineer middle class Bay Area only because dividends are taxed lower). Or a number of side businesses that add up to that income.
- bcasey 14y ago
  I love the idea of "a number of side businesses that add up to that income". Small, simple businesses that generate enough to make the ideal lifestyle possible. That's a strong goal. It's especially good considering your dividend-based alternative. I'm sure you've noticed that dividend stocks are getting hammered right now. :)
  - nicholas73 14y ago
    Yeah, both fortunately and unfortunately I expect myself to be able to sooner build small business income to 100k than amass 2.5 million. Not that either is easy of course. Or even a reasonable expectation. I wouldn't worry about stock price as you hopefully never have to sell a good income payer. But if you are buying, at some point a good dividend payer will fall until it's cheap enough for a good return, ie wait for the next crash. I think the dividend stocks are being sold off now because of uncertainty over tax rules in 2013 for dividends, and also since money has been chasing yield and made those stocks overbought.