6 ms·

IMO most features are annoying and contribute to alarm fatigue and driver irritation, but are not directly dangerous. Lane keep assist though? I often drive on

by mort96 3mo ago

IMO most features are annoying and contribute to alarm fatigue and driver irritation, but are not directly dangerous. Lane keep assist though? I often drive on narrow country roads barely wide enough for two cars, with a white line on each side but no center line. To avoid large oncoming cars, I need to drive on the white line to my right. When I do, lane keep assist activates motors in my steering wheel which try to force the car into the oncoming traffic. Easy to turn on in the modern car I sometimes drive, but oh my god, that was scary the first few times it happened. Beeping at me is bad enough but messing with the steering wheel??? This should be illegal, not required! I'm mostly pro EU but this crap is genuinely making me resent them.

BeetleB 3mo ago
Can't you turn that feature off? I often complain about the lack of buttons, but my car actually has a dedicated button to turn this safety feature off. IIRC, veering from the lane is the cause of most collisions, so it makes sense to have this.
- mort96 3mo ago
  You can't turn it off, you can temporarily disable it but it gets enabled again the next time you get in the car. Regardless, I feel like maybe "suddenly automatically jerk the steering wheel to drive into oncoming traffic" mode should maybe be off by default? Although it would definitely make me less angry if it could be turned off.
  - hparadiz 3mo ago
    A "feature" like this can easily kill someone in some of the sketchy mountain roads I've been on in Crete.
- vladvasiliu 3mo ago
  > IIRC, veering from the lane is the cause of most collisions, so it makes sense to have this. My dad's Toyota has this. The issue is it seems to have a hard time actually centering itself in the lane, so it'll just sway from side to side like a drunk driver if the lane is somewhat narrow. And you can forget about driving on secondary roads, which usually don't have markings on the sides. It'll keep trying to drive in the middle of the road. It's also extremely dangerous to try to correct your trajectory when there's an oncoming car on one of these roads where two cars barely fit, and you have to basically drive on the shoulder. Then there's the collision detection thing. It's basically guaranteed to beep at me whenever I enter my parents' narrow street with cars parked on both sides. Bonus points for it just beeping whenever it's unhappy about something, without having any kind of "log". So if you don't look at the instrument cluster at the exact moment it beeps, you'll have no idea what it wanted. I know about the "imminent collision" one because I saw the dashboard turn red from the corner of my eye and immediately complained to my dad about it. Apparently it does it pretty often when he's maneuvering in and out of the garage. Now, I know many people drive without paying any kind of attention to traffic, which is obviously very dangerous. But I'm not convinced these systems are that useful if people get used to ignoring them.
  - BeetleB 3mo ago
    > My dad's Toyota has this. The issue is it seems to have a hard time actually centering itself in the lane, so it'll just sway from side to side like a drunk driver if the lane is somewhat narrow. Newer cars (or other cars) do a better job of this. Mine doesn't do the ping pong - it really does keep it centered. However, the point is that it should direct you back into the lane and you're supposed to take over. If it's ping ponging, it's because you as the driver are letting it. > Then there's the collision detection thing. It's basically guaranteed to beep at me whenever I enter my parents' narrow street with cars parked on both sides. Is this detecting at the corners and not the front? For example, my old 2016 car has collision detection, but it will only detect if something is in front of you head on. With my newer car, it's checking the corners. Still, I get the warning only when parking. And I can turn it off. > But I'm not convinced these systems are that useful if people get used to ignoring them. Agreed. I think some manufacturers do a better job than others, though.
    - Fuzzwah 3mo ago
      The person you're replying to mentioned a Toyota, which I also drive a newer model of. It has two modes: lane assist (which works like you have described) and lane centering (which automatically is enabled when you switch on cruise control). The centering will continuously nudge you towards what it decides is the center of your lane. It's awful and I've trained myself to automatically long press the button on the steering wheel to disable the entire system every time I get behind the wheel.
      - vladvasiliu 3mo ago
        > The centering will continuously nudge you towards what it decides is the center of your lane. This. It's not just beeping; if it thinks you're moving too close to the edge of the lane, it will steer the car to the other side. The only way for me to prevent doing it is by gripping the steering wheel like crazy. Who the hell drives like that?! No, having to fight the car just to stay put is a failure of the tech. IIRC, this is a 2022 model, so hopefully the tech has improved since.
    - 3mo ago
- b112 3mo ago
  Mine can be turned off. Three menu items deep, at each and every start of the car. No preferences. I simply disabled the camera and radar. The car was unsafe. Did I mention it emergency braked all the time, for no reason? No, it wasn't me, and almost getting rear ended all the time gets old fast. These systems are far too immature for use.
  - bmitc 3mo ago
    What car? My Kia has dedicated buttons. It's three presses.
    - b112 3mo ago
      It's a Ford, with almost no physical buttons. (I edited my comment adding the word deep, to indicate it is 3 clicks deep. Very annoying.)
      - robotnikman 3mo ago
        I remember driving a Ford rental I was given when my car was being repaired that had the same issue with emergency stopping when it absolutely shouldn't be.
      - bmitc 3mo ago
        Yikes. I can't stand the fad to remove physical buttons. While Kia does a decent job (all of these controls I mentioned are on the steering wheel), they have gotten bad about the center dash having touch buttons.
projektfu 3mo ago
That's like the jurisdictions that put rumble strips on the white line and not further into the shoulder. Very frustrating for ordinary cornering.
- itishappy 3mo ago
  Why would ordinary cornering need to use the shoulder?
  - projektfu 3mo ago
    The most comfortable path around a curve in the road starts on the outside of the lane, peaks at the inside of the lane, and returns to the outside. This is similar to a racing line. Using the shoulder enables an even better path. The lane-centered path is less comfortable and, honestly, less natural.
projektfu 3mo ago
It may be possible to change the default with an OBD programmer.
throwawaytea 3mo ago
So you happen to be a rare example of someone that buys a new car recently, and you live on a narrow road, and you like to do a semi rare act when wide cars approach. And that has shown you a bit of the EU insanity. Now imagine just how many rules/regulations like this there actually are that you just aren't the aware of. It's insane.
- spacebacon 3mo ago
  [dead]
fc417fc802 3mo ago
I wonder if you could successfully sue if that "safety" feature actively crashed you into an oncoming vehicle. Seems like that ought to be treated as entirely the fault of the manufacturer.
- zelphirkalt 3mo ago
  In the EU surely not worth it. You probably at most get the money back for a new car. Just like when somehow it turns out someone was mistakenly put in jail and later it is found out, they only get money they would have earned working back, and their freedom and their forever tarnished reputation is valued at zero.
- robotnikman 3mo ago
  iirc there was an incident not too long ago where a van crashed head on when trying to pass another truck on a 2 way road. The lane assist put the van back into the passing lane when he tried to get back into right lane, causing the collision.
tuetuopay 3mo ago
I almost slammed bicycles in Paris on a few occasions because of that crap. Shift a bit to the left to overtake them, get lane assist slam me back right. Thankfully those were close calls, but only thanks to the cyclist being used to traffic in Paris and having good reflexes. Any dangerous machine (like a car) must not do anything unexpected out of the driver's control. A lane assist that resists the wheel when trying to get out? Why not, but dangerous. A lane assist that slam you back in the lane? Criminal. (same with anti-collision braking that triggers too strong too early and surprises drivers behind you) I'm definitely of the opinion that all those features reduce security. The alarm fatigue is real, because the car always finds something to beep at you. Heck, even your hands not being a perfect 10-2 o'clock on the wheel is reason enough on some cars. You quickly ignore the beeps because there are so many reasons for the car to beep it's hard to even understand why.
- Vasbarlog 3mo ago
  In all fairness, you should have put your left blinkers on while overtaking the cyclist, and that would have disabled the lane assist.
  - mort96 3mo ago
    Literally does not matter at all. The car should not automatically jerk itself into a cyclist.
  - dominicrose 3mo ago
    My car (EU, 2018) makes a noise when I cross a line without using the blinkers but it doesn't actually do anything.
  - tuetuopay 3mo ago
    I agree, and I don't remember whether I had the blinker. I, however, also respectfully disagree as in all fairness we should drive 100% perfectly 100% of the time, but we're humans. Expecting 100% driving all the times is the worst as it puts strain on the driver (I say that as someone that's pretty strict on blinkers). What is special is one time it was a one way lane next to the tram with a concrete stub down. I wouldn't be surprised if the anti-collision kicked in and applied lane assist even with the blinker. At any rate, the principle of least surprise still applies: heavy machinery must not jerk unexpectedly to the side. Never ever ever.
cucumber3732842 3mo ago
>IMO most features are annoying and contribute to alarm fatigue and driver irritation, but are not directly dangerous. I agree but the "standard" for car/transportation discussions as set by the screeching morons is that 3rd and 4th order consequences count, so by their own rules it's dangerous even if only barely noticeable at the statistical level by torturing the data.
cucumber3732842 3mo ago
>IMO most features are annoying and contribute to alarm fatigue and driver irritation, but are not directly dangerous. I agree but the "standard" for car/transportation discussions as set by the screeching morons is that indirect Nth order consequences count, so by their own rules it's dangerous even if only barely noticeable at the statistical level by torturing the data.

by mort96 3mo ago

BeetleB 3mo ago

Can't you turn that feature off? I often complain about the lack of buttons, but my car actually has a dedicated button to turn this safety feature off. IIRC, veering from the lane is the cause of most collisions, so it makes sense to have this.

mort96 3mo ago
You can't turn it off, you can temporarily disable it but it gets enabled again the next time you get in the car. Regardless, I feel like maybe "suddenly automatically jerk the steering wheel to drive into oncoming traffic" mode should maybe be off by default? Although it would definitely make me less angry if it could be turned off.
- hparadiz 3mo ago
  A "feature" like this can easily kill someone in some of the sketchy mountain roads I've been on in Crete.
vladvasiliu 3mo ago
> IIRC, veering from the lane is the cause of most collisions, so it makes sense to have this. My dad's Toyota has this. The issue is it seems to have a hard time actually centering itself in the lane, so it'll just sway from side to side like a drunk driver if the lane is somewhat narrow. And you can forget about driving on secondary roads, which usually don't have markings on the sides. It'll keep trying to drive in the middle of the road. It's also extremely dangerous to try to correct your trajectory when there's an oncoming car on one of these roads where two cars barely fit, and you have to basically drive on the shoulder. Then there's the collision detection thing. It's basically guaranteed to beep at me whenever I enter my parents' narrow street with cars parked on both sides. Bonus points for it just beeping whenever it's unhappy about something, without having any kind of "log". So if you don't look at the instrument cluster at the exact moment it beeps, you'll have no idea what it wanted. I know about the "imminent collision" one because I saw the dashboard turn red from the corner of my eye and immediately complained to my dad about it. Apparently it does it pretty often when he's maneuvering in and out of the garage. Now, I know many people drive without paying any kind of attention to traffic, which is obviously very dangerous. But I'm not convinced these systems are that useful if people get used to ignoring them.
- BeetleB 3mo ago
  > My dad's Toyota has this. The issue is it seems to have a hard time actually centering itself in the lane, so it'll just sway from side to side like a drunk driver if the lane is somewhat narrow. Newer cars (or other cars) do a better job of this. Mine doesn't do the ping pong - it really does keep it centered. However, the point is that it should direct you back into the lane and you're supposed to take over. If it's ping ponging, it's because you as the driver are letting it. > Then there's the collision detection thing. It's basically guaranteed to beep at me whenever I enter my parents' narrow street with cars parked on both sides. Is this detecting at the corners and not the front? For example, my old 2016 car has collision detection, but it will only detect if something is in front of you head on. With my newer car, it's checking the corners. Still, I get the warning only when parking. And I can turn it off. > But I'm not convinced these systems are that useful if people get used to ignoring them. Agreed. I think some manufacturers do a better job than others, though.
  - Fuzzwah 3mo ago
    The person you're replying to mentioned a Toyota, which I also drive a newer model of. It has two modes: lane assist (which works like you have described) and lane centering (which automatically is enabled when you switch on cruise control). The centering will continuously nudge you towards what it decides is the center of your lane. It's awful and I've trained myself to automatically long press the button on the steering wheel to disable the entire system every time I get behind the wheel.
    - vladvasiliu 3mo ago
      > The centering will continuously nudge you towards what it decides is the center of your lane. This. It's not just beeping; if it thinks you're moving too close to the edge of the lane, it will steer the car to the other side. The only way for me to prevent doing it is by gripping the steering wheel like crazy. Who the hell drives like that?! No, having to fight the car just to stay put is a failure of the tech. IIRC, this is a 2022 model, so hopefully the tech has improved since.
  - 3mo ago
b112 3mo ago
Mine can be turned off. Three menu items deep, at each and every start of the car. No preferences. I simply disabled the camera and radar. The car was unsafe. Did I mention it emergency braked all the time, for no reason? No, it wasn't me, and almost getting rear ended all the time gets old fast. These systems are far too immature for use.
- bmitc 3mo ago
  What car? My Kia has dedicated buttons. It's three presses.
  - b112 3mo ago
    It's a Ford, with almost no physical buttons. (I edited my comment adding the word deep, to indicate it is 3 clicks deep. Very annoying.)
    - robotnikman 3mo ago
      I remember driving a Ford rental I was given when my car was being repaired that had the same issue with emergency stopping when it absolutely shouldn't be.
    - bmitc 3mo ago
      Yikes. I can't stand the fad to remove physical buttons. While Kia does a decent job (all of these controls I mentioned are on the steering wheel), they have gotten bad about the center dash having touch buttons.

projektfu 3mo ago

That's like the jurisdictions that put rumble strips on the white line and not further into the shoulder. Very frustrating for ordinary cornering.

itishappy 3mo ago
Why would ordinary cornering need to use the shoulder?
- projektfu 3mo ago
  The most comfortable path around a curve in the road starts on the outside of the lane, peaks at the inside of the lane, and returns to the outside. This is similar to a racing line. Using the shoulder enables an even better path. The lane-centered path is less comfortable and, honestly, less natural.

projektfu 3mo ago

It may be possible to change the default with an OBD programmer.

throwawaytea 3mo ago

So you happen to be a rare example of someone that buys a new car recently, and you live on a narrow road, and you like to do a semi rare act when wide cars approach. And that has shown you a bit of the EU insanity. Now imagine just how many rules/regulations like this there actually are that you just aren't the aware of. It's insane.

spacebacon 3mo ago
[dead]

fc417fc802 3mo ago

I wonder if you could successfully sue if that "safety" feature actively crashed you into an oncoming vehicle. Seems like that ought to be treated as entirely the fault of the manufacturer.

zelphirkalt 3mo ago
In the EU surely not worth it. You probably at most get the money back for a new car. Just like when somehow it turns out someone was mistakenly put in jail and later it is found out, they only get money they would have earned working back, and their freedom and their forever tarnished reputation is valued at zero.
robotnikman 3mo ago
iirc there was an incident not too long ago where a van crashed head on when trying to pass another truck on a 2 way road. The lane assist put the van back into the passing lane when he tried to get back into right lane, causing the collision.

tuetuopay 3mo ago

I almost slammed bicycles in Paris on a few occasions because of that crap. Shift a bit to the left to overtake them, get lane assist slam me back right. Thankfully those were close calls, but only thanks to the cyclist being used to traffic in Paris and having good reflexes. Any dangerous machine (like a car) must not do anything unexpected out of the driver's control. A lane assist that resists the wheel when trying to get out? Why not, but dangerous. A lane assist that slam you back in the lane? Criminal. (same with anti-collision braking that triggers too strong too early and surprises drivers behind you) I'm definitely of the opinion that all those features reduce security. The alarm fatigue is real, because the car always finds something to beep at you. Heck, even your hands not being a perfect 10-2 o'clock on the wheel is reason enough on some cars. You quickly ignore the beeps because there are so many reasons for the car to beep it's hard to even understand why.

Vasbarlog 3mo ago
In all fairness, you should have put your left blinkers on while overtaking the cyclist, and that would have disabled the lane assist.
- mort96 3mo ago
  Literally does not matter at all. The car should not automatically jerk itself into a cyclist.
- dominicrose 3mo ago
  My car (EU, 2018) makes a noise when I cross a line without using the blinkers but it doesn't actually do anything.
- tuetuopay 3mo ago
  I agree, and I don't remember whether I had the blinker. I, however, also respectfully disagree as in all fairness we should drive 100% perfectly 100% of the time, but we're humans. Expecting 100% driving all the times is the worst as it puts strain on the driver (I say that as someone that's pretty strict on blinkers). What is special is one time it was a one way lane next to the tram with a concrete stub down. I wouldn't be surprised if the anti-collision kicked in and applied lane assist even with the blinker. At any rate, the principle of least surprise still applies: heavy machinery must not jerk unexpectedly to the side. Never ever ever.

cucumber3732842 3mo ago

>IMO most features are annoying and contribute to alarm fatigue and driver irritation, but are not directly dangerous. I agree but the "standard" for car/transportation discussions as set by the screeching morons is that 3rd and 4th order consequences count, so by their own rules it's dangerous even if only barely noticeable at the statistical level by torturing the data.

cucumber3732842 3mo ago

>IMO most features are annoying and contribute to alarm fatigue and driver irritation, but are not directly dangerous. I agree but the "standard" for car/transportation discussions as set by the screeching morons is that indirect Nth order consequences count, so by their own rules it's dangerous even if only barely noticeable at the statistical level by torturing the data.