5 ms·

Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. It has nothing to do with linguistics. There are many Germans permanentl

by zerr 3mo ago

Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. It has nothing to do with linguistics. There are many Germans permanently living in Vietnam, Thailand and other Southeast Asian countries, who never bothered to even learn how to say Hello, not to mention any certificate or exam...

FabCH 3mo ago
I mean, even if you insist on viewing it as a business deal, what exactly prevents one side to put language requirements in the business deal? That’s how deals work, both sides state their position and either they find a middle ground or they don’t.
- zerr 3mo ago
  Business deal means the requirements should be rational, pragmatic.
  - FabCH 3mo ago
    Well, why is „learn the language“ not a rational and pragmatic requirement? Seems rational to me. Want to live in country X permanently? Learn language X.
    - zerr 3mo ago
      I mean, when you have already proven that you are net positive for the state, and continue doing so, requiring you to pass some exams is not rational. PR != citizenship. Will I have a bit difficulty buying some groceries in a local market? Maybe, but that shouldn't bother the state. Also, you can live permanently without PR. PR unlocks some additional perks, which again, have nothing to do with linguistics.
      - FabCH 3mo ago
        Are you a net positive? Just because somebody pays taxes, it doesn’t necessarily make them a net positive. For example, do you contribute culturally? That can be quite hard to do without speaking the language. What about defense. Would you fight for the country? Hard to do if you don’t understand the orders. What about spiritually? Emotionally?
        zerr 3mo ago
        I believe you are mixing permanent presidentship with citizenship. That's why I've clarified that PR != citizenship.
        FabCH 3mo ago
        Not at all. Citizenship allows you the final participation: political. The right to be chosen and the right to choose. Everything else applies to anyone who lives permanently in a given place. A permanent resident. FWIW: I personally politically support PRs being given the political right to be voted into office as well.
        account42 3mo ago
        > FWIW: I personally politically support PRs being given the political right to be voted into office as well. Why? I'd go the other way and only allow political office for natural citizens. After all why would you welcome someone into your country when their goal is to change it - then maybe they would fit better into another country that already works like they want.
        FabCH 3mo ago
        Because if the will of the people is for person A to serve in office X, then the will of the people should be absolute. I'd even allow election of minors and other currently non-eligible persons. The only requirement should be that you are politically member of the given area, which typically means you actually physically live in the city/state/country. Note, in Switzerland, you can already be voted into office _against your will_. And then you MUST serve. And this has actually happened in recent past, in remote villages to be fair.
      - vanviegen 3mo ago
        > net positive for the state Being a good citizen is not the same as (or even all that much related to) receiving an above average salary.
      - mongol 3mo ago
        You can be a net positive one day, next day you lose your job and are not. On the other hand, permanent is supposed to be without end. An unemployed worker with no language skills in the local language quickly becomes a burden Residency while employed is rational. If you want to stay longer, learn the language
        zerr 3mo ago
        One would say, unemployed with a good local language skills will be able to easier navigate bureaucracy and claim more benefits - more loss for the state :)
      - ablob 3mo ago
        There are implications by linguistics. If you learn a language you also passively obtain insight into cultural norms and expectations. Moreover, Learning a language is much easier if you're friends with natives and converse with them on a semi-regular basis. Being able to speak the language also means that there doesn't need to be a separate support structure for you, as you will be able to use the ones provided to everyone else. I'd wager the sum of these things is something one may expect from a permanent resident (i.e.: cultural knowledge, some amount of integration, ability to function without specialized support structures). And it turns out, that language proficiency is a pretty good proxy for measuring that. Just because you don't accept the rationale behind the requirement it does not mean that there is none. The requirements are not there to verify that you can live somewhere permanently, but if you _may_ live there permanently. Money is not the only dimension your so called "net positive" may be measured in.
  - mrighele 3mo ago
    Asking you to learn German in in Germany is both rational and pragmatic, as it is a good way to be a functioning member of the society.
baranul 3mo ago
Exactly! Though it often seems that people conveniently forget the reverse scenario. Them in other countries is fine and relax about requirements, others in their country, not so much.
- consensus1 3mo ago
  One country is not in any way obligated or expected to have the same entry requirements as another. It is based on priorities of the state and those differ greatly between states.
jyounker 3mo ago
I can't imagine any Germans I know describing permanent residency as a business relationship.
consensus1 3mo ago
Permanent residency is a deal (not necessarily business related) between two entities: an individual and a state. It has everything to do with whatever requirements that the two parties have, and if there is no agreement on them there is no deal. In this case the state cares about language proficiency and requires it for a deal, so if you are not proficient in German there is no deal.
mr_toad 3mo ago
> Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. I doubt that Germans see it that way.
mongol 3mo ago
No, permanent residency is more than a business deal. It is a deal about all aspects of life, business or not.
xdennis 3mo ago
A country is not a contract, it's a culture. It's quite audacious to want to be part of a country, but also to be so quarantined from them as to not even want to learn their language.

by zerr 3mo ago

FabCH 3mo ago

I mean, even if you insist on viewing it as a business deal, what exactly prevents one side to put language requirements in the business deal? That’s how deals work, both sides state their position and either they find a middle ground or they don’t.

zerr 3mo ago
Business deal means the requirements should be rational, pragmatic.
- FabCH 3mo ago
  Well, why is „learn the language“ not a rational and pragmatic requirement? Seems rational to me. Want to live in country X permanently? Learn language X.
  - zerr 3mo ago
    I mean, when you have already proven that you are net positive for the state, and continue doing so, requiring you to pass some exams is not rational. PR != citizenship. Will I have a bit difficulty buying some groceries in a local market? Maybe, but that shouldn't bother the state. Also, you can live permanently without PR. PR unlocks some additional perks, which again, have nothing to do with linguistics.
    - FabCH 3mo ago
      Are you a net positive? Just because somebody pays taxes, it doesn’t necessarily make them a net positive. For example, do you contribute culturally? That can be quite hard to do without speaking the language. What about defense. Would you fight for the country? Hard to do if you don’t understand the orders. What about spiritually? Emotionally?
      - zerr 3mo ago
        I believe you are mixing permanent presidentship with citizenship. That's why I've clarified that PR != citizenship.
        FabCH 3mo ago
        Not at all. Citizenship allows you the final participation: political. The right to be chosen and the right to choose. Everything else applies to anyone who lives permanently in a given place. A permanent resident. FWIW: I personally politically support PRs being given the political right to be voted into office as well.
        account42 3mo ago
        > FWIW: I personally politically support PRs being given the political right to be voted into office as well. Why? I'd go the other way and only allow political office for natural citizens. After all why would you welcome someone into your country when their goal is to change it - then maybe they would fit better into another country that already works like they want.
        FabCH 3mo ago
        Because if the will of the people is for person A to serve in office X, then the will of the people should be absolute. I'd even allow election of minors and other currently non-eligible persons. The only requirement should be that you are politically member of the given area, which typically means you actually physically live in the city/state/country. Note, in Switzerland, you can already be voted into office _against your will_. And then you MUST serve. And this has actually happened in recent past, in remote villages to be fair.
    - vanviegen 3mo ago
      > net positive for the state Being a good citizen is not the same as (or even all that much related to) receiving an above average salary.
    - mongol 3mo ago
      You can be a net positive one day, next day you lose your job and are not. On the other hand, permanent is supposed to be without end. An unemployed worker with no language skills in the local language quickly becomes a burden Residency while employed is rational. If you want to stay longer, learn the language
      - zerr 3mo ago
        One would say, unemployed with a good local language skills will be able to easier navigate bureaucracy and claim more benefits - more loss for the state :)
    - ablob 3mo ago
      There are implications by linguistics. If you learn a language you also passively obtain insight into cultural norms and expectations. Moreover, Learning a language is much easier if you're friends with natives and converse with them on a semi-regular basis. Being able to speak the language also means that there doesn't need to be a separate support structure for you, as you will be able to use the ones provided to everyone else. I'd wager the sum of these things is something one may expect from a permanent resident (i.e.: cultural knowledge, some amount of integration, ability to function without specialized support structures). And it turns out, that language proficiency is a pretty good proxy for measuring that. Just because you don't accept the rationale behind the requirement it does not mean that there is none. The requirements are not there to verify that you can live somewhere permanently, but if you _may_ live there permanently. Money is not the only dimension your so called "net positive" may be measured in.
- mrighele 3mo ago
  Asking you to learn German in in Germany is both rational and pragmatic, as it is a good way to be a functioning member of the society.

baranul 3mo ago

Exactly! Though it often seems that people conveniently forget the reverse scenario. Them in other countries is fine and relax about requirements, others in their country, not so much.

consensus1 3mo ago
One country is not in any way obligated or expected to have the same entry requirements as another. It is based on priorities of the state and those differ greatly between states.

jyounker 3mo ago

I can't imagine any Germans I know describing permanent residency as a business relationship.

consensus1 3mo ago

Permanent residency is a deal (not necessarily business related) between two entities: an individual and a state. It has everything to do with whatever requirements that the two parties have, and if there is no agreement on them there is no deal. In this case the state cares about language proficiency and requires it for a deal, so if you are not proficient in German there is no deal.

mr_toad 3mo ago

> Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. I doubt that Germans see it that way.

mongol 3mo ago

No, permanent residency is more than a business deal. It is a deal about all aspects of life, business or not.

xdennis 3mo ago

A country is not a contract, it's a culture. It's quite audacious to want to be part of a country, but also to be so quarantined from them as to not even want to learn their language.