16 ms·

Balancing parentheses requires semantic understanding? Look, some folks are more impassioned about this stuff than I am. Maybe that's a good thing. But LLMs do

by nyeah 3mo ago

Balancing parentheses requires semantic understanding? Look, some folks are more impassioned about this stuff than I am. Maybe that's a good thing. But LLMs do in fact just try to predict the next token, using a very big training set. They're very impressive (at tasks the training set prepares them for). But that's how they work.

mike_hearn 3mo ago
It requires some level of semantic understanding, like what a paren is and what it means to balance them. The issue in this discussion is that "predict the next token" is a problematically reductive description of what's going on. It's like saying compilers are programs that emit bytes or that humans are mammals that make sounds. It's not strictly false but it's not capturing the depth of what's happening either. A simple way to see this is to ask: predicting the next token of what? The obvious answer - predicting the next token that would be found in the training set - isn't correct. If that's what it were doing then it would yield no prediction or random predictions for any prefix not found in that training set, but it isn't what happens. We see generalization and reasoning. They can answer questions never asked before. And once post-training kicks in the question of what it's predicting becomes even harder. It becomes more like predicting what this specific AI assistant would say next, which is a circular definition.
- deleted 3mo ago
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- nyeah 3mo ago
  In fact LLMs are trained to predict the next token in the training set. Of course sometimes a new text input doesn't match the training set, or it matches two or more places in the training set. LLMs use a neural network to interpolate, so that's fine. Please look this up if you have any doubts. Ok. Now. I think you're adding something to the description above. Maybe what you're describing is something "emergent," or maybe it's basically just word vectors that were built in on purpose. You may be adding something correct, or something incorrect. Fine. But it's not reasonable to say that the "reductive" description above is a "lie". It's not. It's more like a recipe. If you look at correct instructions for making steak, and you call the author a "liar" then you are missing something important.
  - dTal 3mo ago
    >LLMs use a neural network to interpolate "interpolate" in what vector space, pray tell? What does "interpolate" even mean, when I prompt it "write me a story about a sentient banana in the style of Hemingway and oh make it a commentary on class consciousness"? You can't assemble such a thing by cutting and pasting pieces of other text. That kind of "interpolation" has to happen at the semantic level - ipso facto, there is a semantic level. Not to mention that no, they don't predict the next token in the training set. Give any LLM the first paragraph of any Wikipedia article - almost certainly in the training set, and uniquely so - and it won't predict the next word correctly, a lot of the time. But it will predict a word that is grammatically correct, stylistically apropos, and most likely factually correct. So what's it really doing, hm? LLMs aren't even large enough to contain their training data - not even remotely close. It can't "stitch together things it saw" because it doesn't remember them. It only remembers the ideas used to construct them. The learned abstraction is the entire point of the exercise. LLMs would be useless if they were overfit the way you say they are.
    - nyeah 3mo ago
      I guess we should declare victory. You've acknowledged how LLMs actually work.
    - dwa3592 3mo ago
      >>Give any LLM the first paragraph of any Wikipedia article - almost certainly in the training set, and uniquely so - and it won't predict the next word correctly, a lot of the time. But it will predict a word that is grammatically correct, stylistically apropos, and most likely factually correct. So what's it really doing, hm? you are grossly negligent of LLMs are created. I would highly recommend reading about post training, RLHF, alignment etc. First pass of training is literally "predict the next token". That's it. The first pass is also known as pre training. There's a shit ton of work (instructions, tool use, and reasoning etc) that's done afterwards because the pre-trained is model is useless. if you have some free time, I'd recommend doing this course - https://www.deeplearning.ai/courses/post-training-of-llms https://www.deeplearning.ai/courses/post-training-of-llms
  - 3mo ago

by nyeah 3mo ago

mike_hearn 3mo ago

It requires some level of semantic understanding, like what a paren is and what it means to balance them. The issue in this discussion is that "predict the next token" is a problematically reductive description of what's going on. It's like saying compilers are programs that emit bytes or that humans are mammals that make sounds. It's not strictly false but it's not capturing the depth of what's happening either. A simple way to see this is to ask: predicting the next token of what? The obvious answer - predicting the next token that would be found in the training set - isn't correct. If that's what it were doing then it would yield no prediction or random predictions for any prefix not found in that training set, but it isn't what happens. We see generalization and reasoning. They can answer questions never asked before. And once post-training kicks in the question of what it's predicting becomes even harder. It becomes more like predicting what this specific AI assistant would say next, which is a circular definition.

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
nyeah 3mo ago
In fact LLMs are trained to predict the next token in the training set. Of course sometimes a new text input doesn't match the training set, or it matches two or more places in the training set. LLMs use a neural network to interpolate, so that's fine. Please look this up if you have any doubts. Ok. Now. I think you're adding something to the description above. Maybe what you're describing is something "emergent," or maybe it's basically just word vectors that were built in on purpose. You may be adding something correct, or something incorrect. Fine. But it's not reasonable to say that the "reductive" description above is a "lie". It's not. It's more like a recipe. If you look at correct instructions for making steak, and you call the author a "liar" then you are missing something important.
- dTal 3mo ago
  >LLMs use a neural network to interpolate "interpolate" in what vector space, pray tell? What does "interpolate" even mean, when I prompt it "write me a story about a sentient banana in the style of Hemingway and oh make it a commentary on class consciousness"? You can't assemble such a thing by cutting and pasting pieces of other text. That kind of "interpolation" has to happen at the semantic level - ipso facto, there is a semantic level. Not to mention that no, they don't predict the next token in the training set. Give any LLM the first paragraph of any Wikipedia article - almost certainly in the training set, and uniquely so - and it won't predict the next word correctly, a lot of the time. But it will predict a word that is grammatically correct, stylistically apropos, and most likely factually correct. So what's it really doing, hm? LLMs aren't even large enough to contain their training data - not even remotely close. It can't "stitch together things it saw" because it doesn't remember them. It only remembers the ideas used to construct them. The learned abstraction is the entire point of the exercise. LLMs would be useless if they were overfit the way you say they are.
  - nyeah 3mo ago
    I guess we should declare victory. You've acknowledged how LLMs actually work.
  - dwa3592 3mo ago
    >>Give any LLM the first paragraph of any Wikipedia article - almost certainly in the training set, and uniquely so - and it won't predict the next word correctly, a lot of the time. But it will predict a word that is grammatically correct, stylistically apropos, and most likely factually correct. So what's it really doing, hm? you are grossly negligent of LLMs are created. I would highly recommend reading about post training, RLHF, alignment etc. First pass of training is literally "predict the next token". That's it. The first pass is also known as pre training. There's a shit ton of work (instructions, tool use, and reasoning etc) that's done afterwards because the pre-trained is model is useless. if you have some free time, I'd recommend doing this course - https://www.deeplearning.ai/courses/post-training-of-llms https://www.deeplearning.ai/courses/post-training-of-llms
- 3mo ago