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Sodium-ion "salt" batteries will revolutionize electric-vehicle and grid storage
- ck2 3mo agonote sodium-ion is no longer two or three times the weight of lithium-ion, there is only a +33% penalty apparently the problem is there is not yet enough volume in production to compete on price, which I thought was the whole point? > sodium-ion specs have improved to the point that the technology could break into the general EV market. A recent study by Moritz Schütte at Aachen University in Germany and his colleagues found that a sodium-ion battery by the manufacturer Hina rivals Tesla’s lithium-ion batteries on most parameters, although it would still be a third heavier > But CATL claims its sodium-ion battery has an energy density of 175 watt-hours per kilogram, which can compete with the lithium-iron-phosphate batteries in low-cost models from Tesla and others. And while sodium-ion batteries still haven’t quite beaten lithium batteries on price, that could change as they expand, according to Schütte > sodium ions generate less heat in electrochemical reactions, reducing fire risk, so less money can be spent on cooling. They also form weaker bonds with the electrolyte, so they don’t slow down as much in the cold
- jtr1 3mo agoI do wonder if there will be a convergence between sodium-ion battery architectures and cheaper, renewable-powered desalination. Could industrial seawater mining be competitive as a sodium feedstock source?
- soco 3mo agoI just realize we have heaps and heaps of seasalt sludge around desalinization units. Dirty sludge, but salty nevertheless, right there at the fingertips. Maybe some of it could be useful?
- mekdoonggi 3mo agoThat's competing against LFP chemistry, so 33% penalty on a chemistry that itself has a penalty versus NMC. My understanding about sodium though is that the performance in cold and heat is excellent. So even if you pay a penalty for weight, you can drop the thermal management, which saves quite a bit. For grid storage, this chemistry will be a game changer. For vehicle, I think it has a ways to go before being preferred over LFP, but that's a guess.
- ck2 3mo agolike LiFePo4, sodium-ion also won't burn ie. so the fire department doesn't have to spend three days trying to put out a Tesla fire for long hauls, not stop and go city traffic, the weight penalty doesn't matter as much once the weight is moving a tractor-trailer could have a huge cell behind the cab or replacement the massive diesel tanks?
- mekdoonggi 3mo agoI hadn't considered that aspect. Maybe sodium will see applications for hybrid diesel trains, medium haul trucks.
- Havoc 3mo agoReally hoping this enables safer battery tech too. Lithium fires are scary
- SoftTalker 3mo agoAre sodium fires less scary?
- alserio 3mo agoActually, yes
- stronglikedan 3mo agosodium fires don't make their own oxygen, so I would presume they are less scary
- WarmWash 3mo agoIn some sodium-ion chemistries they release hydrogen cyanide gas.
- Havoc 3mo agoYeah. Still absolutely a bad day but less rapid and dramatic
- ajross 3mo agoAnd gasoline fires and high speed collisions aren't? This is the bit of paranoia around EV deployment that I genuinely fail to understand. Personal vehicles are by far the most dangerous apparatus with which we interact, already. And we're fine with it! Have you ever, even once, called a Civic or Vespa "scary"? But put a battery in it suddenly they need new tech before you'll be comfortable?
- AndrewDucker 3mo agoIt's not just vehicles. Battery fires from electric bikes and scooters have also caused issues. And currently you can't put a battery pack into plane hold luggage because of fire risks.
- sourdecor 3mo agoI think it is weird that the recent breakthroughs in sodium batteries have come from China; I would have assumed they would want to keep everyone reliant on their rare earth minerals.
- somelamer567 3mo agoNot correct. Sodium-ion batteries were invented in the United States in the 1970s.
- sourdecor 3mo agoI didn’t say invented - I said recent breakthroughs.
- soleveloper 3mo agoIt is time to standardize EV batteries like wheels: 5-10 mainstream types & competition on quality vs. price vs. range. Regulator help is needed here.
- scotty79 3mo agoLargest Chinese companies will define the standards.
- superxpro12 3mo agoRegulations... in THIS economy and administration????
- soleveloper 3mo agoWell, the EU regulated USB-C and it affected the whole smartphones world.
- nubinetwork 3mo agoNobody liked micro B anyways... and then there's Apple with their lightning port...
- ajb 3mo agoHistorically, vehicles actually did have completely interchangable motive components. They were called horses. It would have been difficult given the state of other technology at the time for the inventors of the internal combustion engine to have supplied it as a drop-in horse replacement for your carriage, but you could kind of imagine that working with current technology.
- akramachamarei 3mo ago> Regulator help is needed here. I don't like the impulse to regulate, especially as a formative measure. Regulating new technology before industry has time to experiment seems like a recipe for high prices, few choices, and low competition.
- eagerpace 3mo agoThere is no reason I can’t put a swimming pool size battery under my house. I don’t care what the energy density is, make it bulletproof and cheap and massive.
- shadowpho 3mo agoCost is a reason. You need to dig out that dirt (which is expensive), it needs supports, your house needs support around it/through it… Making things bulletproof and massive runs opposite of cheap
- stronglikedan 3mo agoI figured they meant while building the house, which of course would cut costs by a lot if it were engineered for.
- soco 3mo agoWhy under the house? It can sit under your yard, no need to bother with so many tons of construction concrete on top of it.
- poisonborz 3mo agoOh look it's the quarterly "revolutionary battery tech incoming" article.
- soco 3mo agoWith a small but significant difference: it's in production already.
- znpy 3mo agowhere can i buy one ?
- 3eb7988a1663 3mo agohttps://peakenergy.com/ https://peakenergy.com/ They might be a bit bigger than you want for home.
- beAbU 3mo agoThere is no buy button on that website.
- 3eb7988a1663 3mo agoThere is also no Buy button for a Tesla Megapack on a consumer website, yet they are still being deployed.
- dlcarrier 3mo agoCATL isn't the first to put sodium-ion batteries into production, but they are the first large established manufacturer to do so, so chances are they won't go bankrupt before production ramps up to general availability.
- WarmWash 3mo agoSomething to be aware of, and this is still in flux as the market is so new, but when sodium-ion batteries that use Prussian Blue/Prussian white cathodes enter thermal-runaway (or catch fire for whatever other reason), they release hydrogen cyanide gas. Obviously manufacturers are aware of this and other chemistries of sodium-ion exist, but when a market is new you can sometimes get all manner of competing tech floating around. I have entertained the idea of being an early adopter for home battery storage, but learning this made me hold off until their was more info/you could be sure about what you were buying.
- criticalfault 3mo agowell, this doesn't sound good. what cathode material is used as an alternative to not make home battery a chemical weapon in disguise?
- 3eb7988a1663 3mo agoLithium batteries will also produce HCN in a fire. I believe sodium batteries actually produce less than lithium, but I do not have a primary source handy.
- mrpotato 3mo agoI was under the impression that the sodium-ion batteries weren't dense enough to put into cars.