9 ms·

Kim Dotcom Gets Green Light to Sue New Zealand Spies

144 points by Garbage 14y ago

denzil_correa 14y ago
Kim is turning into a Julian Assange of the Internet and he is now taking this to a whole new level.
- GotAnyMegadeth 14y ago
  Is JA not the JA of the internet?
  - denzil_correa 14y ago
    In my books, Assange deals more with politics and organizational process issues. Sure - he uses the Internet as his medium. On the other hand, Kim Dotcom deals with Internet issues.
- kzrdude 14y ago
  And both are getting stuck in the corruption of the system. More people need to combat it. Corruption exists in many forms. When you pay someone to get around the law you know it is corruption, but when a law is created to do one thing, but it is used for another thing it is also corruption.
  - veb 14y ago
    >> corruption of the system The difference between Julian Assange and Kim Dotcom is that Kim Dotcom is in New Zealand, which is tied with 3 other countries as the countries with the least perceived corruption in the world.[1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
- sigzero 14y ago
  Assange is a douche. Let's not lump the two together.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    Assange's alleged assaults would put him in a different class than a con-artist, I suppose.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    What and you think Kim is a great guy? It's really important to separate the work from the person. I doubt many of us would have wanted to be friends with Steve Jobs but man I'm glad he existed and did the (professional) things he did.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      Dotcom is trying to make a buck, not sincerely change the system.
      - flyinRyan 14y ago
        If making a buck ends up changing the system, why would I care about why he did it? If you go back and look at history with a critical eye you'll find none of your heroes had you in mind when they did whatever it is they did. If we only celebrate the self-less then we have no one to thank for much of anything. That doesn't strike me as very fair.
        illuminate 14y ago
        Hey, I'll be happy if this changes anything for the better. I feel I'm setting my expectations reasonably low. He's best known for bluster and charisma and promises unfulfilled, after all. I'd happily eat these words if anything positive comes from this.
- skeletonjelly 14y ago
  Yeah this is according to TorrentFreak. Of course they're going to put him up as a role model.
huhtenberg 14y ago
Gotta admit he got both balls and the backbone to keep pushing this matter forward.
- maeon3 14y ago
  What can I do to increase his chances of success?
- illuminate 14y ago
  His most honed skill is self-promotion, so that's a given.
digitalengineer 14y ago
police search, illegal seizure raids, great show of force, attacking him in his safe-house, unlawfully intercepted communications, unlawful surveillance, (still!) freezing his accounts... But somehow people pirating music/films is the worlds biggest problem? I'd say any government willing to break so many of it's own laws is the problem.
- cdooh 14y ago
  Worse is any goverment willing to break their own laws for another government that is really a proxy for an industry... That's what's really scary about this
  - pirateking 14y ago
    Welcome to Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong!
- testeroni 14y ago
  > I'd say any government willing to break so many of it's own laws is the problem. And when the breaking of laws becomes too onerous or attracts too much attention, they simply change the law to make their behavior legal, e.g. NDAA in the USA.
  - Tipzntrix 14y ago
    Or they delegate the activities to the NSA who work under-the-radar and nobody knows anything except what the whistle-blowers say.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
dia80 14y ago
I'm amazed at how the NZ institutions are putting their hands up and the courts seem to be working. It seems so different from so many of the stories/comments here regarding similar stuff in the US. Corruption Perception Index: NZ = 90 (1st) vs US = 73 (19th) Not a coincidence?
- J_Darnley 14y ago
  Hang on, does that indicate that NZ is perceived to be the most corrupt country on the scale? Just what countries are included, or excluded for that matter?
  - AdamTReineke 14y ago
    The opposite: "A country or territory’s score indicates the perceived level of public sector corruption on a scale of 0 - 100, where 0 means that a country is perceived as highly corrupt and 100 means it is perceived as very clean." http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results
- ihsw 14y ago
  The most interesting point of the article is that it is illegal for the GCSB (New Zealand spy agency) to monitor New Zealanders. Personally I feel that other nations should learn from this and implement similar policies.
  - btilly 14y ago
    It already is illegal for the CIA to monitor Americans on American soil. Of course once you are used to breaking laws around the world, what is one more law?
maeon3 14y ago
There is a worldwide effort going on right now to put a ownership sticker on the worldwide internet, that goal has been failing, so now they are settling for an "ownership of the internet in their jurisdiction", and that is failing too, so they do the next best thing: "Digital rights management" because oh god won't somebody think of the children with child pornography and music downloads! It's about expanding the power base, the ultimate goal here is for governments to acquire the ability to tax every bit and byte that travels across their borders. Kim stands for freedom. Government, stay out of my shit, you have a few defined jobs and you're not doing any of them here. Power corrupts and seeks more power, it's the human condition. I'm afraid a free neutral and open internet and the explosion of technology it brought will be a phenomenon for the history books either soon or eventually.
- mistercow 14y ago
  >"Digital rights management" because oh god won't somebody think of the children with child pornography and music downloads! I don't understand what connection you're drawing between CP and DRM.
  - rohansingh 14y ago
    There is no good connection between them. However, I've seen legislators often conflate the two in order to promote pro-DRM legislation in the name of protecting the children.
    - mistercow 14y ago
      I was certainly aware of the connection between anti-CP and copyright, but I have never heard of a connection to DRM specifically. I thought the connections were limited to the shared interests of fighting CP and fighting copyright infringement, like monitoring peer to peer networks and requiring ISPs to keep records and comply with requests from law enforcement.
  - graeme 14y ago
    CP is often used as a justification for stricter internet controls, which leaks over into non-CP areas. Common strategy. Use a cause that no one will argue against in order to push rules that serve a broader agenda.
downandout 14y ago
The interesting part of this case for me is that it underscores the tremendous differences between the US justice system and those of the rest of the world. In New Zeland, Kim Dotcom seems to at least be getting a fair chance. Their government seems to be willing to admit when it makes mistakes, and their judges seem apt to attempt to make amends when mistakes occur. By contrast, in the US, all of the issues he has brought up so far would be dismissed by judges claiming they were harmless error because they are unlikely to affect the question of guilt or innocence. Of course, there is also no possibility of someone being sentenced to life in prison for stealing a piece of pizza in NZ either, which has happened and does happen frequently here in the US. It's sad to say, but other countries are making the US look less and less civilized every day.
- wtvanhest 14y ago
  >Of course, there is also no possibility of someone being sentenced to life in prison for stealing a piece of pizza in NZ either, which has happened and does happen frequently here in the US. I can't find a single example of this. Some people are convicted for long sentences for violating 3 strikes rules, which are questionable, but I think you have exaggerated more than a little here. [EDIT] [Added] The comment below mentions this case, but the guy only did 6 years: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/10/local/la-me-pizzathief10-2010feb10 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/10/local/la-me-pizzathi... I looked around and there just are not many, if any cases like the OP describes. His comment is an exaggeration to say the least, and may even been an absurd exaggeration based on something he vaguely remembers from 1995.
  - graeme 14y ago
    I read 'frequently' as meaning 'much more than it should'. I'm guessing he was referring to three strikes violations leading to jail time for pizza-stealing. I googled 'stealing pizza jail' and came up with one example, which of course was from California. Doesn't seem like it happens often, but there are enough stories of long jail time for comparably petty offences. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stealing-one-slice-of-pizza-results-in-life-3150629.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stealing-one-slice-of-piz... I also found this odd story from spain, which is a more serious incident of pizza thievery, with a knife: http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2011/04/25/pizza-theft-malaga/ http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2011/04/25/pizza-thef...
joeblau 14y ago
I've been following Kim since my friend showed me the kimble.org flash website back in the early 2000's. All the events in his life could be an amazing story for a movie.
nvmc 14y ago
Rapt when I saw this on the news last night. A hugely influential decision. Not only is the GCSE now liable for their actions, but it opens up the opportunity to sue other organizations, which we have been unable to do since the eighties.

144 points by Garbage 14y ago

denzil_correa 14y ago

Kim is turning into a Julian Assange of the Internet and he is now taking this to a whole new level.

GotAnyMegadeth 14y ago
Is JA not the JA of the internet?
- denzil_correa 14y ago
  In my books, Assange deals more with politics and organizational process issues. Sure - he uses the Internet as his medium. On the other hand, Kim Dotcom deals with Internet issues.
kzrdude 14y ago
And both are getting stuck in the corruption of the system. More people need to combat it. Corruption exists in many forms. When you pay someone to get around the law you know it is corruption, but when a law is created to do one thing, but it is used for another thing it is also corruption.
- veb 14y ago
  >> corruption of the system The difference between Julian Assange and Kim Dotcom is that Kim Dotcom is in New Zealand, which is tied with 3 other countries as the countries with the least perceived corruption in the world.[1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
sigzero 14y ago
Assange is a douche. Let's not lump the two together.
- illuminate 14y ago
  Assange's alleged assaults would put him in a different class than a con-artist, I suppose.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  What and you think Kim is a great guy? It's really important to separate the work from the person. I doubt many of us would have wanted to be friends with Steve Jobs but man I'm glad he existed and did the (professional) things he did.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    Dotcom is trying to make a buck, not sincerely change the system.
    - flyinRyan 14y ago
      If making a buck ends up changing the system, why would I care about why he did it? If you go back and look at history with a critical eye you'll find none of your heroes had you in mind when they did whatever it is they did. If we only celebrate the self-less then we have no one to thank for much of anything. That doesn't strike me as very fair.
      - illuminate 14y ago
        Hey, I'll be happy if this changes anything for the better. I feel I'm setting my expectations reasonably low. He's best known for bluster and charisma and promises unfulfilled, after all. I'd happily eat these words if anything positive comes from this.
skeletonjelly 14y ago
Yeah this is according to TorrentFreak. Of course they're going to put him up as a role model.

huhtenberg 14y ago

Gotta admit he got both balls and the backbone to keep pushing this matter forward.

maeon3 14y ago
What can I do to increase his chances of success?
illuminate 14y ago
His most honed skill is self-promotion, so that's a given.

digitalengineer 14y ago

police search, illegal seizure raids, great show of force, attacking him in his safe-house, unlawfully intercepted communications, unlawful surveillance, (still!) freezing his accounts... But somehow people pirating music/films is the worlds biggest problem? I'd say any government willing to break so many of it's own laws is the problem.

cdooh 14y ago
Worse is any goverment willing to break their own laws for another government that is really a proxy for an industry... That's what's really scary about this
- pirateking 14y ago
  Welcome to Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong!
testeroni 14y ago
> I'd say any government willing to break so many of it's own laws is the problem. And when the breaking of laws becomes too onerous or attracts too much attention, they simply change the law to make their behavior legal, e.g. NDAA in the USA.
- Tipzntrix 14y ago
  Or they delegate the activities to the NSA who work under-the-radar and nobody knows anything except what the whistle-blowers say.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

dia80 14y ago

I'm amazed at how the NZ institutions are putting their hands up and the courts seem to be working. It seems so different from so many of the stories/comments here regarding similar stuff in the US. Corruption Perception Index: NZ = 90 (1st) vs US = 73 (19th) Not a coincidence?

J_Darnley 14y ago
Hang on, does that indicate that NZ is perceived to be the most corrupt country on the scale? Just what countries are included, or excluded for that matter?
- AdamTReineke 14y ago
  The opposite: "A country or territory’s score indicates the perceived level of public sector corruption on a scale of 0 - 100, where 0 means that a country is perceived as highly corrupt and 100 means it is perceived as very clean." http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results
ihsw 14y ago
The most interesting point of the article is that it is illegal for the GCSB (New Zealand spy agency) to monitor New Zealanders. Personally I feel that other nations should learn from this and implement similar policies.
- btilly 14y ago
  It already is illegal for the CIA to monitor Americans on American soil. Of course once you are used to breaking laws around the world, what is one more law?

maeon3 14y ago

There is a worldwide effort going on right now to put a ownership sticker on the worldwide internet, that goal has been failing, so now they are settling for an "ownership of the internet in their jurisdiction", and that is failing too, so they do the next best thing: "Digital rights management" because oh god won't somebody think of the children with child pornography and music downloads! It's about expanding the power base, the ultimate goal here is for governments to acquire the ability to tax every bit and byte that travels across their borders. Kim stands for freedom. Government, stay out of my shit, you have a few defined jobs and you're not doing any of them here. Power corrupts and seeks more power, it's the human condition. I'm afraid a free neutral and open internet and the explosion of technology it brought will be a phenomenon for the history books either soon or eventually.

mistercow 14y ago
>"Digital rights management" because oh god won't somebody think of the children with child pornography and music downloads! I don't understand what connection you're drawing between CP and DRM.
- rohansingh 14y ago
  There is no good connection between them. However, I've seen legislators often conflate the two in order to promote pro-DRM legislation in the name of protecting the children.
  - mistercow 14y ago
    I was certainly aware of the connection between anti-CP and copyright, but I have never heard of a connection to DRM specifically. I thought the connections were limited to the shared interests of fighting CP and fighting copyright infringement, like monitoring peer to peer networks and requiring ISPs to keep records and comply with requests from law enforcement.
- graeme 14y ago
  CP is often used as a justification for stricter internet controls, which leaks over into non-CP areas. Common strategy. Use a cause that no one will argue against in order to push rules that serve a broader agenda.

downandout 14y ago

The interesting part of this case for me is that it underscores the tremendous differences between the US justice system and those of the rest of the world. In New Zeland, Kim Dotcom seems to at least be getting a fair chance. Their government seems to be willing to admit when it makes mistakes, and their judges seem apt to attempt to make amends when mistakes occur. By contrast, in the US, all of the issues he has brought up so far would be dismissed by judges claiming they were harmless error because they are unlikely to affect the question of guilt or innocence. Of course, there is also no possibility of someone being sentenced to life in prison for stealing a piece of pizza in NZ either, which has happened and does happen frequently here in the US. It's sad to say, but other countries are making the US look less and less civilized every day.

wtvanhest 14y ago
>Of course, there is also no possibility of someone being sentenced to life in prison for stealing a piece of pizza in NZ either, which has happened and does happen frequently here in the US. I can't find a single example of this. Some people are convicted for long sentences for violating 3 strikes rules, which are questionable, but I think you have exaggerated more than a little here. [EDIT] [Added] The comment below mentions this case, but the guy only did 6 years: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/10/local/la-me-pizzathief10-2010feb10 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/10/local/la-me-pizzathi... I looked around and there just are not many, if any cases like the OP describes. His comment is an exaggeration to say the least, and may even been an absurd exaggeration based on something he vaguely remembers from 1995.
- graeme 14y ago
  I read 'frequently' as meaning 'much more than it should'. I'm guessing he was referring to three strikes violations leading to jail time for pizza-stealing. I googled 'stealing pizza jail' and came up with one example, which of course was from California. Doesn't seem like it happens often, but there are enough stories of long jail time for comparably petty offences. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stealing-one-slice-of-pizza-results-in-life-3150629.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Stealing-one-slice-of-piz... I also found this odd story from spain, which is a more serious incident of pizza thievery, with a knife: http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2011/04/25/pizza-theft-malaga/ http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2011/04/25/pizza-thef...

joeblau 14y ago

I've been following Kim since my friend showed me the kimble.org flash website back in the early 2000's. All the events in his life could be an amazing story for a movie.

nvmc 14y ago

Rapt when I saw this on the news last night. A hugely influential decision. Not only is the GCSE now liable for their actions, but it opens up the opportunity to sue other organizations, which we have been unable to do since the eighties.