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The challenge for Europe is if it can actually deliver. It’s been highly dependent on the US economically, technically, militarily and otherwise for decades. Po

by cmiles8 3mo ago

The challenge for Europe is if it can actually deliver. It’s been highly dependent on the US economically, technically, militarily and otherwise for decades. Posturing on sovereignty has ramped up again but it’s not fundamentally new. A lot of folks would take Europe more seriously if there was more substance behind the talk. If it wants to replace US tech it needs to be competitive with US tech. Today it’s light years off. The US has its own challenges, but it’s ability to unite as a country of independent states is something that Europe is unlikely to match anytime soon and that has a direct impact on the ability to execute everything Europe is posturing about.

everybodyknows 3mo ago
For any Europeans who've been tracking the issue: How much take-up have Mario Draghi's ideas for business reform gotten? From 2024: https://commission.europa.eu/topics/competitiveness/draghi-report_en https://commission.europa.eu/topics/competitiveness/draghi-r...
- CalRobert 3mo ago
  As far as I’m aware a lot of noise was made about a 28th Regime “eu-inc” and not much happened. It’s still a pain in the ass to start a company in too many places (albeit not all).
- alephnerd 3mo ago
  Draghi himself has said the EU hasn't taken the steps mentioned in the report, and that every challenge in the report has only gotten worse [0]. [0] - https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/business/20250916-mario-draghi-warns-europe-is-falling-further-behind-us-china-due-to-government-complacency https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/business/20250916-mario...
glimmung 3mo ago
It's hard for an addict to stop being dependant upon a dealer - not least because the dealer wants to maintain that dependency. We've been suckered, and fallen for it hard, but now that Trump has made it clear that the US will never again be a reliable partner, the scales are falling from even our leaders eyes. The headline has it right - there is no going back.
- hsuduebc2 3mo ago
  We should unironically thanks to that hollow head. His lack of understanding that Our dependence on US is a weapon, not a burden is the best thing that could happen in terms of more sovereignity.
surgical_fire 3mo ago
Europe is not a country. If you meant the EU, it is also not a country. You are comparing the US to a bloc. Each member state will likely take a different approach to independence from the US, and the bloc as a whole may offer some incentives in that direction. One thing is for sure, any talk about independence from the US 10 years ago would be looked at with complete skepticism. People that said anything in that direction was looked at as a crank. Now it is a much more palatable position. Change starts like that. Will it hold? I can't tell. I think it will be very unlikely for things to go back to the previous state.
- cmiles8 3mo ago
  Yes and this is the point. If Europe as a “bloc” wants to put substance behind the rhetoric then it needs to get everyone running in the same direction to actually compete with the US. Until then it’s all just wishful thinking.
hsuduebc2 3mo ago
I mostly agree. Europe’s biggest weakness is that many nations still carry grudges against each other, rooted in hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of years of conflict. These old prejudices usually only get pushed aside when there is a serious external threat, such as the ever present possibility of a devastating war on the continent. The US has a much more unified culture, enormous scale, and a geographically protected position, with access to vast resources. Europe has the technical talent, but much of its technology has often been bought by US firms, partly because VC funding is far weaker here. I think that is largely cultural. At the same time, Europeans were sold the idea that the US is their friend. It is an ally, but not a friend, and that distinction matters. Now that illusion has started to break, there is finally an incentive to change. If the EU becomes strategically protectionist in the same way the US already is, for example by preventing key IT companies from being sold overseas, it could gradually move critical infrastructure back under European control. It can do this partly by copying already proven solutions, such as AWS. Of course, this would not be easy, but Europe does not need to spend billions discovering a completely new product category from scratch. The models already exist. Surely the first problem I mentioned will be the biggest obstacle for all of this as it is for everything. We will see what happens, but at least something has started to move. European's should unironically thanks the hollow head currently leading US, because he simply didn't understand that European dependence on US is a weapon, not a burder.
- cmiles8 3mo ago
  >>“Europeans were sold the idea that the US is their friend. It is an ally, but not a friend, and that distinction matters.“ This is a fair and key point and also worth considering the view from the other side of the pond. Americans were legitimately getting fed up that the ally-ship was getting too one sided on who’s pulling their own weight in the relationship. Military spending is one hot topic coming to light again now that the neighborhood is looking unstable again. Europeans often say “but look at our social net you silly Americans.” The American view often says “your social net has all that government money because your defense is highly subsidized by us.” That’s glossing over a few points but the math is directionally correct. Europe is running the numbers and increasingly realizes this too. Reckoning with that is one of many future hurdles facing Europe.
tim333 3mo ago
You don't necessarily need to be competitive with US tech to be independent. Most countries aren't as good as the US on tech but they get by.
jjav 3mo ago
> If it wants to replace US tech it needs to be competitive with US tech There has been the age-old argument of how Linux can only replace windows on the desktop if it is "good enough". In reality it has been good enough almost from the very beginning (I've been using a company-issued work laptop with Linux since around late 1994 so I feel comfortable saying that). What people really mean when they say that is that they want it to be exactly the same as windows where everything works exactly the same and can't be bothered to do anything differently. Which of course it won't be exactly the same. To use a different platform you have to accept some differences. That's a feature, not a bug. Monocultures are terrible, the more diversity the more resilient the ecosystem. So no, Europe should have completely different (but RFC-compliant compatible) tech stack, not simply an identical clone of US tech. That would be a strength, not just for Europe, but for interoperability across the world. Let's remember, that's how it used to be! Systems on the Internet might be SunOS or IRIX of HP-UX or AIX (if you were weird), or even a VAX, or any of a long tail of smaller lesser-known manufacturers. It all worked together, but different.
MrSkelter 3mo ago
Europe is already competitive, or leading, in many areas. The US only has leverage over ASML due to other ties. If those are broken the leverage disappears and without ASML Americas tech industry suffers greatly. Similarly Rolls Royce engines and BAE manufacturing are critical to the US military. The F-35 cannot be built without critical parts made only in the UK and which have no second supplier. Europe doesn’t need to math the US military and wouldn’t want to in 2026. Look at what Ukraine is doing to Moscow. The US military is a machine built for a war that never came and now which never will. No one wants 11 carrier groups anymore because fighting that way is the past. Europe is in many ways a mess, and I say that as a native born European with American citizenship who’s spent my adult life in the California tech scene. However America is totally dependent on Chinese manufacturing, global supply chains and European partners and bases. America can’t produce N95 masks, nitrile gloves, or a chip fab to compete with Taiwan despite billions in government funding to accelerate these projects as critical. Americas situation is as messed up as Europes and the US has fewer people, less land and fewer resources as a whole.

by cmiles8 3mo ago

everybodyknows 3mo ago

For any Europeans who've been tracking the issue: How much take-up have Mario Draghi's ideas for business reform gotten? From 2024: https://commission.europa.eu/topics/competitiveness/draghi-report_en https://commission.europa.eu/topics/competitiveness/draghi-r...

CalRobert 3mo ago
As far as I’m aware a lot of noise was made about a 28th Regime “eu-inc” and not much happened. It’s still a pain in the ass to start a company in too many places (albeit not all).
alephnerd 3mo ago
Draghi himself has said the EU hasn't taken the steps mentioned in the report, and that every challenge in the report has only gotten worse [0]. [0] - https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/business/20250916-mario-draghi-warns-europe-is-falling-further-behind-us-china-due-to-government-complacency https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/business/20250916-mario...

glimmung 3mo ago

It's hard for an addict to stop being dependant upon a dealer - not least because the dealer wants to maintain that dependency. We've been suckered, and fallen for it hard, but now that Trump has made it clear that the US will never again be a reliable partner, the scales are falling from even our leaders eyes. The headline has it right - there is no going back.

hsuduebc2 3mo ago
We should unironically thanks to that hollow head. His lack of understanding that Our dependence on US is a weapon, not a burden is the best thing that could happen in terms of more sovereignity.

surgical_fire 3mo ago

Europe is not a country. If you meant the EU, it is also not a country. You are comparing the US to a bloc. Each member state will likely take a different approach to independence from the US, and the bloc as a whole may offer some incentives in that direction. One thing is for sure, any talk about independence from the US 10 years ago would be looked at with complete skepticism. People that said anything in that direction was looked at as a crank. Now it is a much more palatable position. Change starts like that. Will it hold? I can't tell. I think it will be very unlikely for things to go back to the previous state.

cmiles8 3mo ago
Yes and this is the point. If Europe as a “bloc” wants to put substance behind the rhetoric then it needs to get everyone running in the same direction to actually compete with the US. Until then it’s all just wishful thinking.

hsuduebc2 3mo ago

I mostly agree. Europe’s biggest weakness is that many nations still carry grudges against each other, rooted in hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of years of conflict. These old prejudices usually only get pushed aside when there is a serious external threat, such as the ever present possibility of a devastating war on the continent. The US has a much more unified culture, enormous scale, and a geographically protected position, with access to vast resources. Europe has the technical talent, but much of its technology has often been bought by US firms, partly because VC funding is far weaker here. I think that is largely cultural. At the same time, Europeans were sold the idea that the US is their friend. It is an ally, but not a friend, and that distinction matters. Now that illusion has started to break, there is finally an incentive to change. If the EU becomes strategically protectionist in the same way the US already is, for example by preventing key IT companies from being sold overseas, it could gradually move critical infrastructure back under European control. It can do this partly by copying already proven solutions, such as AWS. Of course, this would not be easy, but Europe does not need to spend billions discovering a completely new product category from scratch. The models already exist. Surely the first problem I mentioned will be the biggest obstacle for all of this as it is for everything. We will see what happens, but at least something has started to move. European's should unironically thanks the hollow head currently leading US, because he simply didn't understand that European dependence on US is a weapon, not a burder.

cmiles8 3mo ago
>>“Europeans were sold the idea that the US is their friend. It is an ally, but not a friend, and that distinction matters.“ This is a fair and key point and also worth considering the view from the other side of the pond. Americans were legitimately getting fed up that the ally-ship was getting too one sided on who’s pulling their own weight in the relationship. Military spending is one hot topic coming to light again now that the neighborhood is looking unstable again. Europeans often say “but look at our social net you silly Americans.” The American view often says “your social net has all that government money because your defense is highly subsidized by us.” That’s glossing over a few points but the math is directionally correct. Europe is running the numbers and increasingly realizes this too. Reckoning with that is one of many future hurdles facing Europe.

tim333 3mo ago

You don't necessarily need to be competitive with US tech to be independent. Most countries aren't as good as the US on tech but they get by.

jjav 3mo ago

> If it wants to replace US tech it needs to be competitive with US tech There has been the age-old argument of how Linux can only replace windows on the desktop if it is "good enough". In reality it has been good enough almost from the very beginning (I've been using a company-issued work laptop with Linux since around late 1994 so I feel comfortable saying that). What people really mean when they say that is that they want it to be exactly the same as windows where everything works exactly the same and can't be bothered to do anything differently. Which of course it won't be exactly the same. To use a different platform you have to accept some differences. That's a feature, not a bug. Monocultures are terrible, the more diversity the more resilient the ecosystem. So no, Europe should have completely different (but RFC-compliant compatible) tech stack, not simply an identical clone of US tech. That would be a strength, not just for Europe, but for interoperability across the world. Let's remember, that's how it used to be! Systems on the Internet might be SunOS or IRIX of HP-UX or AIX (if you were weird), or even a VAX, or any of a long tail of smaller lesser-known manufacturers. It all worked together, but different.

MrSkelter 3mo ago

Europe is already competitive, or leading, in many areas. The US only has leverage over ASML due to other ties. If those are broken the leverage disappears and without ASML Americas tech industry suffers greatly. Similarly Rolls Royce engines and BAE manufacturing are critical to the US military. The F-35 cannot be built without critical parts made only in the UK and which have no second supplier. Europe doesn’t need to math the US military and wouldn’t want to in 2026. Look at what Ukraine is doing to Moscow. The US military is a machine built for a war that never came and now which never will. No one wants 11 carrier groups anymore because fighting that way is the past. Europe is in many ways a mess, and I say that as a native born European with American citizenship who’s spent my adult life in the California tech scene. However America is totally dependent on Chinese manufacturing, global supply chains and European partners and bases. America can’t produce N95 masks, nitrile gloves, or a chip fab to compete with Taiwan despite billions in government funding to accelerate these projects as critical. Americas situation is as messed up as Europes and the US has fewer people, less land and fewer resources as a whole.