8 ms·

RMS: Apple has tightest digital handcuffs in history

94 points by bitcartel 14y ago

dadams74 14y ago
Spot on comment; 'Just finished reading the comments, thank you all, most insightful in understanding the demographics of /. today: rage comic addicts with a depressingly shallow perspective on free software and that would gladly trade their siblings for the next iShiny and that think that saying inanity like "Well, freedom isn't important if the product is usable" is anything more than a mediocre platitude. Reading Computer Shopper adverts was more challenging that this drivel, "Oh, I don't mind that I don't own the software or even know what they do with my data because it is soooo convenient lol this RMS guy is so out of it!".'
luu 14y ago
There are three kinds: those that spy on the user, those that restrict the user, and back doors. Windows has all three. Microsoft can install software changes without asking permission Don't most people consider automatic updates a feature? It's rare to hear someone say say "Boy, I really hate that chrome has automatic updates". And, if you don't like it, you can disable it. If he's referring to phones, my Linux (Android) phone automatically updates itself, and, if you recall the CarrierIQ debacle, the spyware features were disabled on iOS devices and enabled and some Android devices. The term "back door" is misleading and deliberately inflammatory. The "back door" into windows that causes security updates to be installed by default saves people who don't obsessively download security updates from having actual back doors installed on their machines. How does Windows spy on users? Is he talking about crash reporting or perhaps the malicious website tracking that some browsers now do, something that prevents actual spyware from being installed? I use Ubuntu on two personal machines, and I really wish that it had a "back door" as nice as Windows Update. I've upgraded Ubuntu three times and it's broken software that I use daily every time. In one case, I had to recompile something from source, and in two other cases, I had to edit some obscure config file. I like free software, both philosophically and practically, but you're not going to win over users by telling them that features that make it possible for non-technical users to have a secure system are handcuffs. I dislike this sort of demagoguery because it makes it harder to convince moderates. There's a guy like this at work; he makes it almost impossible to convince people of anything that's even similar to what he believes, because you have to first convince them that you're not a radical extremist before they'll listen at all.
- bitcartel 14y ago
  I think people implicitly trust Microsoft and Apple to not install anything dodgy on their computers, and it's no different for Linux users. As Mark Shuttlworth said, regarding integrated Amazon search, "Don’t trust us? Erm, we have root. You do trust us with your data already. You trust us not to screw up on your machine with every update." (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1182 http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1182)
  - taligent 14y ago
    Excellent point. How about all those businesses that have their services hosted in the cloud e.g. Amazon EC2.
  - fierarul 14y ago
    I don't see how can you compare the two. Trusting Canonical with their bits just assumes they are not malicious and data will only leak by some freak bugs. Trusting them with your every typed char in a search box is a totally different matter.
  - belorn 14y ago
    There is a difference between having updates, and having updates you can't disable or turn down. Ubuntu has no updates that are forced onto the users after the users disable automatic updates, but Windows does it. Apple? I do not know if apple has ever pushed an update that has ignored the user setting, so I will put that down as a maybe. Iphone, doubtful if apple can't push updates regardless of any user settings.
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      I can disable Windows updates, I can even say don't even bother checking for them. There have been a few instances of bugs that ignored the settings but that's not by design, that's by accident.
      - belorn 14y ago
opminion 14y ago
Those who find Stallman's view of automatic updates against common sense should note that they are just the logical consequence of GNU's demand for "freedom to study and change the program in source code form". There's nothing more to it. From that point of view automatic updates which could be reviewed at the source code level are different from binary updates, although both serve the same practical purpose for the "non technical end user".
- wladimir 14y ago
  Maybe we need better tools to study and change the program in binary form. I'm getting really sick of companies using binary blobs to obfuscate and mystify what is happening inside devices they produce. There is nothing magical to binary code, just like source code it's simply clear-cut instructions for the CPU what to do. Sure, you lose higher-level abstractions when compiling, which are sometimes hard to reconstruct, and sometimes impossible, such as comments and documentation... But there is a lot of information that can be derived from binary form. See for example the extensive literature on producing exploits from patches, even automatically, by using smart diffing that understands the assembly. Currently this is pretty much limited due to nonavailability of advanced tools. To do anything beyond simple disassembly one needs expensive decompilation tools and disassemblers, and specialized proprietary tools that security companies are using. But given that (in practice) it is neigh impossible to rely on only open source, I'd love it if binaries got some more scrutiny from the public instead of "just swallow them and pray everything is OK".
shared4you 14y ago
For someone looking for a direct link to the interview: http://www.newint.org/features/web-exclusive/2012/12/05/richard-stallman-interview/ http://www.newint.org/features/web-exclusive/2012/12/05/rich...
brnstz 14y ago
Open source is great for infrastructure software. The number of high quality open source tools that exist now is actually quite amazing. All you need to start learning cutting-edge software development is an internet connection, an old computer, and a desire to learn. This has changed drastically in the past 20 years, and much of that can be attributed to Stallman's efforts. But for consumer-facing software, I don't think open source is the right solution. The auto-updating marketplaces provide tremendous value to the average consumer. Installing software and keeping a machine up to date is a job. Most people don't have the time or inclination to do it. If I give someone an iPad, I can be 99% certain they won't make it unusable or full of viruses in a month. Have you seen the average person's Windows desktop? You may disagree with what Apple deems an "approved" app, but we do have competing marketplaces. I think that is an important check and balance. Apple also did a magnificent job at creating a DRM-free marketplace for music. It didn't happen all at once. Their negotiation with the music industry was gradual. That is something that an ideologue like Stallman is completely incapable of accomplishing, I'm sorry to say.
- meaty 14y ago
  If I give someone an iPad, I can be 99% certain they won't make it unusable or full of viruses in a month. Have you seen the average person's Windows desktop? I'm not sure that's a magic bullet. Amongst my family and friends at least, I have seen the following problems instead: The iPad is now broken because they gave it to their kids to play "poke santa until he falls over" or whatever it is, they dropped it and it had all their stuff on it and they can't get it back because they have no idea what all their sign ins were and whether or not stuff was on facebook or the device or not. Can't get it off either because it's stuck together and the flash is soldered on the board. The Windows PC is still full of crap, but at least we can get most of it back every time by yanking the drive, plopping it in a spare machine, virus scanning it, cleaning it up and sticking it back in their PC. Worst case, they lose a few infected jpgs or their WoW account details. We get a lot more "fuck you iPad!" than we do with a PC to be honest.
  - brnstz 14y ago
    I'd say the worst thing about the iOS environment is that everything isn't synced to the cloud consistently. It's approaching that. Restoring your stuff should be a matter of knowing a single sign in. We're getting there. But yes, you're right, there may be stuff on the flash drive that you can't necessarily get out. Not everyone has a tech support person to restore their Windows machine from a crash. It sounds easy to you, but it is not. The average person should not need to run a redundant backup system in their house. I love "open" computing and I would never want to be without it. But I've played tech support for my friends and family long enough to know it's never going to be for everyone.
nicholassmith 14y ago
RMS says things, people angrily disagree with RMS, people passionately agree with RMS. RMS is RMS. His idea of a computer is much different to what most people want. Out of curiosity does anyone know what he was talking about when he mentioned "two spy features" that Apple removed? I can't remember ever hearing about it.
- misnome 14y ago
  I think one of them was the "Location Cache" that remembered locations and connected WIFI hotspots (IIRC to aid in fast geolocation), and there was another case of something like some carrier-mandated monitoring software. All a couple of years ago.
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    If that is the case then calling them features feels somewhat inaccurate. The location cache one was far closer to being a bug or an unintentionally poor implementation rather than something that had deliberately been inserted.
    - ciderpunx 14y ago
      "six legged feature"?
      - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
        Call it what you like but as all software has bugs it's not a particularly useful differentiator. What I'm curious about is why closed software seems to get such a rough ride on the privacy front compared to services such as Facebook, Google Search and Gmail which are business models which don't leak data incidentally, but piss it up against a wall as a fundamental and entirely necessary part of how they work. Facebook gets a tough time but Google it feels to me gets off very lightly.
RexRollman 14y ago
Stallman's right, but people don't seem to care, in much the same way that they stand by while their privacy rights are eroded in the name of safety. I am at a loss to explain why people don't care about this.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Part of the reason is that people don't invest themselves in their computers the same way people like Stallman do. As I've gotten older, my computer has just become something I use, not something I'm personally invested in. I don't really care if it's locked down in the same way I don't care that my car is locked down. If either need fixing I just take it to professionals whose job it is to fix it. I really care even less than my car because my car is a lot less easily replaceable.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I made this point in another thread but part of the reason it's so easy to just take your car to a professional is that it's not "locked down". So anyone with requisite skills, knowledge and tools can fix your car, therefor auto mechanics have to compete on price and service. If your car was locked down in the same way you would be forced to go back to the manufacturer and accept whatever service they offered. You could argue that this is a bigger problem with computers because they are more prone to monopolies due to the complicated interfaces between hardware and software systems, your car only has to interface with the road. There are of course other issues too, when 90% of the people on the planet use computers that are almost entirely controlled by a small number of companies and these people use their computers for all of their communication and consuming all of their news this gives those companies a huge amount of power in terms of censorship , evesdropping etc. So there are issues here that go beyond the computer in itself.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      My car is definitely locked down in about the same way as my computer. The hardware is open (though much harder to get to these days than before), but the software is closed and you can't peak inside without specialized equipment.
culshaw 14y ago
Considering cryptography is advancing rapidly this is not surprising?

94 points by bitcartel 14y ago

Spot on comment; 'Just finished reading the comments, thank you all, most insightful in understanding the demographics of /. today: rage comic addicts with a depressingly shallow perspective on free software and that would gladly trade their siblings for the next iShiny and that think that saying inanity like "Well, freedom isn't important if the product is usable" is anything more than a mediocre platitude. Reading Computer Shopper adverts was more challenging that this drivel, "Oh, I don't mind that I don't own the software or even know what they do with my data because it is soooo convenient lol this RMS guy is so out of it!".'

luu 14y ago

There are three kinds: those that spy on the user, those that restrict the user, and back doors. Windows has all three. Microsoft can install software changes without asking permission Don't most people consider automatic updates a feature? It's rare to hear someone say say "Boy, I really hate that chrome has automatic updates". And, if you don't like it, you can disable it. If he's referring to phones, my Linux (Android) phone automatically updates itself, and, if you recall the CarrierIQ debacle, the spyware features were disabled on iOS devices and enabled and some Android devices. The term "back door" is misleading and deliberately inflammatory. The "back door" into windows that causes security updates to be installed by default saves people who don't obsessively download security updates from having actual back doors installed on their machines. How does Windows spy on users? Is he talking about crash reporting or perhaps the malicious website tracking that some browsers now do, something that prevents actual spyware from being installed? I use Ubuntu on two personal machines, and I really wish that it had a "back door" as nice as Windows Update. I've upgraded Ubuntu three times and it's broken software that I use daily every time. In one case, I had to recompile something from source, and in two other cases, I had to edit some obscure config file. I like free software, both philosophically and practically, but you're not going to win over users by telling them that features that make it possible for non-technical users to have a secure system are handcuffs. I dislike this sort of demagoguery because it makes it harder to convince moderates. There's a guy like this at work; he makes it almost impossible to convince people of anything that's even similar to what he believes, because you have to first convince them that you're not a radical extremist before they'll listen at all.

bitcartel 14y ago
I think people implicitly trust Microsoft and Apple to not install anything dodgy on their computers, and it's no different for Linux users. As Mark Shuttlworth said, regarding integrated Amazon search, "Don’t trust us? Erm, we have root. You do trust us with your data already. You trust us not to screw up on your machine with every update." (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1182 http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1182)
- taligent 14y ago
  Excellent point. How about all those businesses that have their services hosted in the cloud e.g. Amazon EC2.
- fierarul 14y ago
  I don't see how can you compare the two. Trusting Canonical with their bits just assumes they are not malicious and data will only leak by some freak bugs. Trusting them with your every typed char in a search box is a totally different matter.
- belorn 14y ago
  There is a difference between having updates, and having updates you can't disable or turn down. Ubuntu has no updates that are forced onto the users after the users disable automatic updates, but Windows does it. Apple? I do not know if apple has ever pushed an update that has ignored the user setting, so I will put that down as a maybe. Iphone, doubtful if apple can't push updates regardless of any user settings.
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    I can disable Windows updates, I can even say don't even bother checking for them. There have been a few instances of bugs that ignored the settings but that's not by design, that's by accident.
    - belorn 14y ago

opminion 14y ago

Those who find Stallman's view of automatic updates against common sense should note that they are just the logical consequence of GNU's demand for "freedom to study and change the program in source code form". There's nothing more to it. From that point of view automatic updates which could be reviewed at the source code level are different from binary updates, although both serve the same practical purpose for the "non technical end user".

wladimir 14y ago
Maybe we need better tools to study and change the program in binary form. I'm getting really sick of companies using binary blobs to obfuscate and mystify what is happening inside devices they produce. There is nothing magical to binary code, just like source code it's simply clear-cut instructions for the CPU what to do. Sure, you lose higher-level abstractions when compiling, which are sometimes hard to reconstruct, and sometimes impossible, such as comments and documentation... But there is a lot of information that can be derived from binary form. See for example the extensive literature on producing exploits from patches, even automatically, by using smart diffing that understands the assembly. Currently this is pretty much limited due to nonavailability of advanced tools. To do anything beyond simple disassembly one needs expensive decompilation tools and disassemblers, and specialized proprietary tools that security companies are using. But given that (in practice) it is neigh impossible to rely on only open source, I'd love it if binaries got some more scrutiny from the public instead of "just swallow them and pray everything is OK".

shared4you 14y ago

For someone looking for a direct link to the interview: http://www.newint.org/features/web-exclusive/2012/12/05/richard-stallman-interview/ http://www.newint.org/features/web-exclusive/2012/12/05/rich...

brnstz 14y ago

Open source is great for infrastructure software. The number of high quality open source tools that exist now is actually quite amazing. All you need to start learning cutting-edge software development is an internet connection, an old computer, and a desire to learn. This has changed drastically in the past 20 years, and much of that can be attributed to Stallman's efforts. But for consumer-facing software, I don't think open source is the right solution. The auto-updating marketplaces provide tremendous value to the average consumer. Installing software and keeping a machine up to date is a job. Most people don't have the time or inclination to do it. If I give someone an iPad, I can be 99% certain they won't make it unusable or full of viruses in a month. Have you seen the average person's Windows desktop? You may disagree with what Apple deems an "approved" app, but we do have competing marketplaces. I think that is an important check and balance. Apple also did a magnificent job at creating a DRM-free marketplace for music. It didn't happen all at once. Their negotiation with the music industry was gradual. That is something that an ideologue like Stallman is completely incapable of accomplishing, I'm sorry to say.

meaty 14y ago
If I give someone an iPad, I can be 99% certain they won't make it unusable or full of viruses in a month. Have you seen the average person's Windows desktop? I'm not sure that's a magic bullet. Amongst my family and friends at least, I have seen the following problems instead: The iPad is now broken because they gave it to their kids to play "poke santa until he falls over" or whatever it is, they dropped it and it had all their stuff on it and they can't get it back because they have no idea what all their sign ins were and whether or not stuff was on facebook or the device or not. Can't get it off either because it's stuck together and the flash is soldered on the board. The Windows PC is still full of crap, but at least we can get most of it back every time by yanking the drive, plopping it in a spare machine, virus scanning it, cleaning it up and sticking it back in their PC. Worst case, they lose a few infected jpgs or their WoW account details. We get a lot more "fuck you iPad!" than we do with a PC to be honest.
- brnstz 14y ago
  I'd say the worst thing about the iOS environment is that everything isn't synced to the cloud consistently. It's approaching that. Restoring your stuff should be a matter of knowing a single sign in. We're getting there. But yes, you're right, there may be stuff on the flash drive that you can't necessarily get out. Not everyone has a tech support person to restore their Windows machine from a crash. It sounds easy to you, but it is not. The average person should not need to run a redundant backup system in their house. I love "open" computing and I would never want to be without it. But I've played tech support for my friends and family long enough to know it's never going to be for everyone.

nicholassmith 14y ago

RMS says things, people angrily disagree with RMS, people passionately agree with RMS. RMS is RMS. His idea of a computer is much different to what most people want. Out of curiosity does anyone know what he was talking about when he mentioned "two spy features" that Apple removed? I can't remember ever hearing about it.

misnome 14y ago
I think one of them was the "Location Cache" that remembered locations and connected WIFI hotspots (IIRC to aid in fast geolocation), and there was another case of something like some carrier-mandated monitoring software. All a couple of years ago.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  If that is the case then calling them features feels somewhat inaccurate. The location cache one was far closer to being a bug or an unintentionally poor implementation rather than something that had deliberately been inserted.
  - ciderpunx 14y ago
    "six legged feature"?
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      Call it what you like but as all software has bugs it's not a particularly useful differentiator. What I'm curious about is why closed software seems to get such a rough ride on the privacy front compared to services such as Facebook, Google Search and Gmail which are business models which don't leak data incidentally, but piss it up against a wall as a fundamental and entirely necessary part of how they work. Facebook gets a tough time but Google it feels to me gets off very lightly.

RexRollman 14y ago

Stallman's right, but people don't seem to care, in much the same way that they stand by while their privacy rights are eroded in the name of safety. I am at a loss to explain why people don't care about this.

rayiner 14y ago
Part of the reason is that people don't invest themselves in their computers the same way people like Stallman do. As I've gotten older, my computer has just become something I use, not something I'm personally invested in. I don't really care if it's locked down in the same way I don't care that my car is locked down. If either need fixing I just take it to professionals whose job it is to fix it. I really care even less than my car because my car is a lot less easily replaceable.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I made this point in another thread but part of the reason it's so easy to just take your car to a professional is that it's not "locked down". So anyone with requisite skills, knowledge and tools can fix your car, therefor auto mechanics have to compete on price and service. If your car was locked down in the same way you would be forced to go back to the manufacturer and accept whatever service they offered. You could argue that this is a bigger problem with computers because they are more prone to monopolies due to the complicated interfaces between hardware and software systems, your car only has to interface with the road. There are of course other issues too, when 90% of the people on the planet use computers that are almost entirely controlled by a small number of companies and these people use their computers for all of their communication and consuming all of their news this gives those companies a huge amount of power in terms of censorship , evesdropping etc. So there are issues here that go beyond the computer in itself.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    My car is definitely locked down in about the same way as my computer. The hardware is open (though much harder to get to these days than before), but the software is closed and you can't peak inside without specialized equipment.

culshaw 14y ago

Considering cryptography is advancing rapidly this is not surprising?