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> TL;DR: We've allocated resources to maintain Flipper Zero firmware and support community contributions. Is that the tldr? It sure sounds like it's still on m

> TL;DR: We've allocated resources to maintain Flipper Zero firmware and support community contributions. Is that the tldr? It sure sounds like it's still on minimal life support.

hdgr 4mo ago
It is. As the article says, all development goals for FZ had been achieved and even overachieved - providing solid and feature-rich firmware, powerful SDK and developer tools. With that and development shift towards new products, updates to core firmare became infrequent - and we tried to address that. Src: I'm one of the developers behind Flipper Zero.
- throwing_away 4mo ago
  You guys have done such a good job that I've thought about buying one even though I don't need one at all just to support the project. You've surely launched a generation of perhaps-someday-responsible hackers into the world.
jagged-chisel 4mo ago
Why can't something be "done"?
- busymom0 4mo ago
  Was just reading something along those lines: https://infosec.exchange/@millie/115719943870742405 https://infosec.exchange/@millie/115719943870742405 > We need to normalize declaring software as finished. Not everything needs continuous updates to function. In fact, a minority of software needs this. Most software works as it is written. The code does not run out of date. I want more projects that are actually just finished, without the need to be continuously mutated and complexified ad infinitum.
  - godelski 4mo ago
    To be fair, some software does rot. But when you have control of the hardware and the software, rot is pretty uncommon. Honestly, I thought the whole point was to make a popular unified platform where the community could come together and expand on it. I really can't imagine a centralized player can predict nor create all features that users might want. But it seems like Flipper did the right thing: make the software flexible and easy to expand upon.
    - ethbr1 4mo ago
      Software rot is mostly about dependency size, ne? I'm curious if the agentic-based code flows will start to optimize higher-order programming goals in future evolutions. 1. Code works 2. Code works in all situations 3. Code uses defensive practices for unanticipated situations 4. Code is maintainable 5. Code is well architected 6. Code minimizes impact of rot Right now, it feels like AI coding is ~2.5, if left to its own devices without human guidance.
      - godelski 4mo ago
        I think you're over generalizing. Software rot happens for a multitude of reasons - hardware changes - firmware changes - operating system changes - dependencies change - bits flip, thanks cosmic rays! > Right now, it feels like AI coding is ~2.5 A lot of people would argue that it's not even 1. I'd argue it sits between 0.7 and 1.2 given the task. I don't think it's close to 2. It's hyper fixated on task implementation. It's really bad at abstractions, even when requested. You have to be pretty precise over these instructions. I've only seen it develop well, even with explicit instructions, a handful of times. But hey, that's true about a lot of people too. Though people will not claim to have solved the proper generalization, people will just say "I just care that it works", which is kinda why AI is trained that way. It's not being programmed by your Knuths, it's being programmed by your Zuckerbergs.
        ethbr1 4mo ago
        In the case of Flipper, we're talking about fixed hardware (granted, eventually parts may need to be substituted) and firmware as the rotting target, so no OS level above that. Which makes it a simpler problem. I'd say SOTA AI coding systems are better than 1 and still improving. They often build better code than junior engineers. And with prompting and feedback harnesses, they're starting to grok architectural alignment.
- bigiain 4mo ago
  Especially since, as that article describes, the "firmware" has a much more limited scope that it used to, now being mostly a loader for app rather that providing user functions. Worrying about firmware development resources for a Flipper Zero seems a bit like concentrating on your bios instead of ongoing updates to Linux and the applications you use. Yeah, it's important, but it's probably exceedingly rare for the firmware here to need to change much.
- nicman23 4mo ago
  why it should?
- hypfer 4mo ago
  That's because we haven't yet started to laugh people out of the room that get uneasy and complain when the rate of updates of something starts slowing down.
  - ethbr1 4mo ago
    I heard a graybeard story about a manager who walked into a new ~90s sysadmin shop and was immediately horrified that everyone was calmly and slowly working. At his old company, the sysadmins had been constantly putting out emergency fires! ... seeing how the "used to infinitely patched software" generation is unable to parse "done" is interesting. Eventually, competence means nothing to do.
ActorNightly 4mo ago
Why would you need any support for things that are fully open source and flashable yourself? Most everyone who has a flipper runs something like Unleashed firmware, and most of the functionality is in the apps that people built, not in the actual firmware.

> TL;DR: We've allocated resources to maintain Flipper Zero firmware and support community contributions. Is that the tldr? It sure sounds like it's still on minimal life support.

hdgr 4mo ago

It is. As the article says, all development goals for FZ had been achieved and even overachieved - providing solid and feature-rich firmware, powerful SDK and developer tools. With that and development shift towards new products, updates to core firmare became infrequent - and we tried to address that. Src: I'm one of the developers behind Flipper Zero.

throwing_away 4mo ago
You guys have done such a good job that I've thought about buying one even though I don't need one at all just to support the project. You've surely launched a generation of perhaps-someday-responsible hackers into the world.

jagged-chisel 4mo ago

Why can't something be "done"?

busymom0 4mo ago
Was just reading something along those lines: https://infosec.exchange/@millie/115719943870742405 https://infosec.exchange/@millie/115719943870742405 > We need to normalize declaring software as finished. Not everything needs continuous updates to function. In fact, a minority of software needs this. Most software works as it is written. The code does not run out of date. I want more projects that are actually just finished, without the need to be continuously mutated and complexified ad infinitum.
- godelski 4mo ago
  To be fair, some software does rot. But when you have control of the hardware and the software, rot is pretty uncommon. Honestly, I thought the whole point was to make a popular unified platform where the community could come together and expand on it. I really can't imagine a centralized player can predict nor create all features that users might want. But it seems like Flipper did the right thing: make the software flexible and easy to expand upon.
  - ethbr1 4mo ago
    Software rot is mostly about dependency size, ne? I'm curious if the agentic-based code flows will start to optimize higher-order programming goals in future evolutions. 1. Code works 2. Code works in all situations 3. Code uses defensive practices for unanticipated situations 4. Code is maintainable 5. Code is well architected 6. Code minimizes impact of rot Right now, it feels like AI coding is ~2.5, if left to its own devices without human guidance.
    - godelski 4mo ago
      I think you're over generalizing. Software rot happens for a multitude of reasons - hardware changes - firmware changes - operating system changes - dependencies change - bits flip, thanks cosmic rays! > Right now, it feels like AI coding is ~2.5 A lot of people would argue that it's not even 1. I'd argue it sits between 0.7 and 1.2 given the task. I don't think it's close to 2. It's hyper fixated on task implementation. It's really bad at abstractions, even when requested. You have to be pretty precise over these instructions. I've only seen it develop well, even with explicit instructions, a handful of times. But hey, that's true about a lot of people too. Though people will not claim to have solved the proper generalization, people will just say "I just care that it works", which is kinda why AI is trained that way. It's not being programmed by your Knuths, it's being programmed by your Zuckerbergs.
      - ethbr1 4mo ago
        In the case of Flipper, we're talking about fixed hardware (granted, eventually parts may need to be substituted) and firmware as the rotting target, so no OS level above that. Which makes it a simpler problem. I'd say SOTA AI coding systems are better than 1 and still improving. They often build better code than junior engineers. And with prompting and feedback harnesses, they're starting to grok architectural alignment.
bigiain 4mo ago
Especially since, as that article describes, the "firmware" has a much more limited scope that it used to, now being mostly a loader for app rather that providing user functions. Worrying about firmware development resources for a Flipper Zero seems a bit like concentrating on your bios instead of ongoing updates to Linux and the applications you use. Yeah, it's important, but it's probably exceedingly rare for the firmware here to need to change much.
nicman23 4mo ago
why it should?
hypfer 4mo ago
That's because we haven't yet started to laugh people out of the room that get uneasy and complain when the rate of updates of something starts slowing down.
- ethbr1 4mo ago
  I heard a graybeard story about a manager who walked into a new ~90s sysadmin shop and was immediately horrified that everyone was calmly and slowly working. At his old company, the sysadmins had been constantly putting out emergency fires! ... seeing how the "used to infinitely patched software" generation is unable to parse "done" is interesting. Eventually, competence means nothing to do.

ActorNightly 4mo ago

Why would you need any support for things that are fully open source and flashable yourself? Most everyone who has a flipper runs something like Unleashed firmware, and most of the functionality is in the apps that people built, not in the actual firmware.