3 ms·

All they have to do then is say that they license you a game, and you're not buying anything, despite paying for it. They already do that with online games.

by sph 3mo ago

eszed 3mo ago
At least that would be honest....
- swat535 3mo ago
  It should just say "Rent" instead of "Buy"
  - Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
    Except you don't rent, you buy a license with no expiry date, but which can be revoked one-sidedly. It's all covered by the legalese, else we would've had the major lawsuits and consequent legislation changes back when the first generation of digitally bought / DRM'd music was no longer available. (iirc this was also Sony, ironically. Fake edit, I looked it up; it was Sony that put a rootkit in its CDs, they were sued and settled out of court https://boingboing.net/2005/11/14/sony-anticustomer-te.html https://boingboing.net/2005/11/14/sony-anticustomer-te.html). Microsoft, Yahoo and Wal-Mart changed their services in such a way that music was no longer playable in 2008 (https://opensource.com/life/11/11/drm-graveyard-brief-history-digital-rights-management-music https://opensource.com/life/11/11/drm-graveyard-brief-histor...), with Yahoo even encouraging users to burn their music to CDs to keep it. In 2011 Rhapsody recommended to back up their older DRM'd RAX files to another format so they remain listenablle.
jvuygbbkuurx 3mo ago
That is literally what most online digital goods already do, like steam.
- demaga 3mo ago
  Sure, but UI needs to reflect that too. I just opened Steam to verify - it definitely says 'Buy {game_name} - Add to Cart'
  - embedding-shape 3mo ago
    I remember saying the exact same thing here on HN like two weeks ago, which someone then promptly corrected me saying that Steam/Valve actually "explain" what their "Buy" means right before payment, and I think they were right, there is some greyed out text somewhere explaining you don't actually "Purchase a copy of the game" but you license it via Valve/Steam somehow, can't remember the details atm, later at the checkout process though.
    - RuggedPineapple 3mo ago
      >greyed out text You mean the full color box thats for all practical purposes the same size and prominence as the cart you're checking out? https://imgur.com/a/0fkh4l3 https://imgur.com/a/0fkh4l3
krzyk 3mo ago
That is literally in any software since like 90s. You buy license.
- eldaisfish 3mo ago
  right, but back in the 90s, the onus of maintaining a working copy of any software was on you. Now, Sony simply reaches into you home and can deny you access to software/movies you "bought". These are not the same situation.
  - krzyk 3mo ago
    Well, yes. Always online is a problem, but it doesn't change what one buys. A thing that is easy to copy without destroying the original. So they invented licenses to contain the copying part.
  - meh2frdf 3mo ago
    Which is all detailed as something they can do in the licence you bought but obviously didn't understand (which is fine I don't read the details either). You seem to have semantics you apply to the word 'buy' and think the world should align to that, it clearly does not.
- franga2000 3mo ago
  It's a completely different license. A normal software license gives you the right to use version X of the software on Y computers/seats/users/... You have the original installer on the disc, you can download installers for patch releases online and save them for later, you have the activation key. At any point, you can uninstall the software and give or sell the installer and key to someone else. What games and some software do these days is much worrse. You have a license to use their "software installation service" and their "let me run the game" service until they decide to turn them off. At any point, at their discretion, they can remove your ability to install a new copy or even run it all together. Very different and quite recent.
  - krzyk 3mo ago
matthewfcarlson 3mo ago
One of the unstated points of this particular article is that these rules are ones that we as a society have. If we collectively decide that this isn’t something that should be allowed, we can make it so. There are some powerful interests that don’t want it so it’s not an easy path.
meh2frdf 3mo ago
You are 'buying' some thing, a licence that grant you some permissions (aka rights). That licence has some constraints, you don't like them, then don't buy the licence. It's literally how it works, you just don't seem to grasp that. Now are the constraints on licences (aka agreement), not great, not consumer friendly .. different set of questions.

All they have to do then is say that they license you a game, and you're not buying anything, despite paying for it. They already do that with online games.

by sph 3mo ago

All they have to do then is say that they license you a game, and you're not buying anything, despite paying for it. They already do that with online games.

eszed 3mo ago

At least that would be honest....

swat535 3mo ago
It should just say "Rent" instead of "Buy"
- Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
  Except you don't rent, you buy a license with no expiry date, but which can be revoked one-sidedly. It's all covered by the legalese, else we would've had the major lawsuits and consequent legislation changes back when the first generation of digitally bought / DRM'd music was no longer available. (iirc this was also Sony, ironically. Fake edit, I looked it up; it was Sony that put a rootkit in its CDs, they were sued and settled out of court https://boingboing.net/2005/11/14/sony-anticustomer-te.html https://boingboing.net/2005/11/14/sony-anticustomer-te.html). Microsoft, Yahoo and Wal-Mart changed their services in such a way that music was no longer playable in 2008 (https://opensource.com/life/11/11/drm-graveyard-brief-history-digital-rights-management-music https://opensource.com/life/11/11/drm-graveyard-brief-histor...), with Yahoo even encouraging users to burn their music to CDs to keep it. In 2011 Rhapsody recommended to back up their older DRM'd RAX files to another format so they remain listenablle.

jvuygbbkuurx 3mo ago

That is literally what most online digital goods already do, like steam.

demaga 3mo ago
Sure, but UI needs to reflect that too. I just opened Steam to verify - it definitely says 'Buy {game_name} - Add to Cart'
- embedding-shape 3mo ago
  I remember saying the exact same thing here on HN like two weeks ago, which someone then promptly corrected me saying that Steam/Valve actually "explain" what their "Buy" means right before payment, and I think they were right, there is some greyed out text somewhere explaining you don't actually "Purchase a copy of the game" but you license it via Valve/Steam somehow, can't remember the details atm, later at the checkout process though.
  - RuggedPineapple 3mo ago
    >greyed out text You mean the full color box thats for all practical purposes the same size and prominence as the cart you're checking out? https://imgur.com/a/0fkh4l3 https://imgur.com/a/0fkh4l3

krzyk 3mo ago

That is literally in any software since like 90s. You buy license.

eldaisfish 3mo ago
right, but back in the 90s, the onus of maintaining a working copy of any software was on you. Now, Sony simply reaches into you home and can deny you access to software/movies you "bought". These are not the same situation.
- krzyk 3mo ago
  Well, yes. Always online is a problem, but it doesn't change what one buys. A thing that is easy to copy without destroying the original. So they invented licenses to contain the copying part.
- meh2frdf 3mo ago
  Which is all detailed as something they can do in the licence you bought but obviously didn't understand (which is fine I don't read the details either). You seem to have semantics you apply to the word 'buy' and think the world should align to that, it clearly does not.
franga2000 3mo ago
It's a completely different license. A normal software license gives you the right to use version X of the software on Y computers/seats/users/... You have the original installer on the disc, you can download installers for patch releases online and save them for later, you have the activation key. At any point, you can uninstall the software and give or sell the installer and key to someone else. What games and some software do these days is much worrse. You have a license to use their "software installation service" and their "let me run the game" service until they decide to turn them off. At any point, at their discretion, they can remove your ability to install a new copy or even run it all together. Very different and quite recent.
- krzyk 3mo ago

matthewfcarlson 3mo ago

One of the unstated points of this particular article is that these rules are ones that we as a society have. If we collectively decide that this isn’t something that should be allowed, we can make it so. There are some powerful interests that don’t want it so it’s not an easy path.

meh2frdf 3mo ago

You are 'buying' some thing, a licence that grant you some permissions (aka rights). That licence has some constraints, you don't like them, then don't buy the licence. It's literally how it works, you just don't seem to grasp that. Now are the constraints on licences (aka agreement), not great, not consumer friendly .. different set of questions.