5 ms·

Absolutely this. Fifteen years ago World of Warcraft was at its peak. You had 12 million people paying a monthly fee, plus buying the occasional expansion pac

by hx8 3mo ago

Absolutely this. Fifteen years ago World of Warcraft was at its peak. You had 12 million people paying a monthly fee, plus buying the occasional expansion pack. No other gaming company had seen reoccurring revenue numbers like that before and it changed the industry. One aspect of this was that if you stopped paying you lost access to the game. The industry has been looking for the next way to level up this subscription model on gaming. Battle Passes, Xbox Live, Game Pass, Playstation Plus, Stadia, Game Fly, and a ton of other ideas. Sony is now using the stick to directly attack ownership instead of the carrot to entice subscriptions. We'll see how this plays in the PS6, but I think they are overplaying their position, especially with how underwhelming the PS5 has been received by gamers. I'm optimistic that the raise in PC gaming will act as a balance for the obvious greed of the consoles. It's becoming a larger and larger player in the non-mobile gaming market, and it's too big to be treated like a second class citizen anymore. The open platform prevents anyone from acting as a gatekeeper between game developers and players. For me personally, I began losing interest in consoles the first time I had to install a console game to a hard drive. The plug and play magic just fell apart.

thfuran 3mo ago
I’m not nearly so optimistic. I think we have a generation of kids now who mostly never owned any physical media, having grown up with Netflix instead of vhs/dvd, Spotify instead of CDs, steam instead of retail games, etc.
- hx8 3mo ago
  I'm pessimistic about physical media yes. That's a legacy technology at this point.
- Hoodedcrow 3mo ago
  I see nothing wrong with abandoning physical media - as storage got larger and internet faster, being limited by clunky disks has become kinda pointless unless you're specifically into collecting. I see nothing wrong with moving on from them as long as it's towards local DRMless files.
  - thfuran 3mo ago
    Sure, but we didn’t go from physical media to online delivery of outright purchased digital goods. We overwhelmingly transitioned to subscription streaming or “purchasing” revocably licensed copies with no guarantee of future delivery and drm on any downloaded copy.
    - Hoodedcrow 3mo ago
      I don't think it's generational. I got the impression it's a share of about every age group. Also, ownership can be a side effect for even those who don't care, just because they're used to not paying for things. For example, when I got Minecraft for free as a little kid, it was because nobody would buy it for me, while in hindsight this also meant no account that could potentially be lost when transition to Microsoft accounts began.
tayo42 3mo ago
Is there really a rise in PC gaming going on? Isn't that dependent on people having PCs and hardware?
- hx8 3mo ago
  Yes. Look at the market research. It's growing specifically fast in Asia, but there is also strong growth with North America. Having a PC to check your email, order off amazon, and download recipes is dying. Buying a PC and using it for video games is raising. The PC hardware is getting more expensive, but the upgrade cycles are also extending. If you look at the steam hardware survey most gamers are 1-3 GPU generations behind. If you look at the total cost of ownership PC gaming is not awful compared to consoles. It's higher, but not as high as the initial price tag makes it look. There is no monthly Playstation Plus or Xbox Live subscription. These can run between $80/yr to $240/yr. PC games often have access to deeper discounts. The PC has additional utility, and modern PC components are holding exceptional resell value.
  - tayo42 3mo ago
    Hmm I see, that's interesting. Seems like the games industry it self is in a pretty bad state despite that
    - criddell 3mo ago
      If you include mobile gaming, things look a lot better.
      - sciencejerk 3mo ago
        Mobile gaming is a mess. Android is still open, but Apple devices are locked down, and bigG keeps trying to close sideloading. Subsciption micropayments ads enshittification has hit mobile gaming HARD. Not sure mobile gaming is in good shape...?
        deleted 3mo ago
PaulKeeble 3mo ago
People still don't own their games with Steam, the main PC platform. I don't think its going under anytime soon and currently its reasonably customer friendly but as we have seen these big tech companies can turn on their customer base at any moment. GOG is about the only way to actually own the games since no DRM is applied and you can download the entire package and keep it and don't require their launcher. PC already went digital no ownership for most people unfortunately. His argument that it isn't the same doesn't wash, you still can't sell them or lend them to someone else and you have to hack around Steam's DRM, which is a loophole that can be closed at any point.
- aceazzameen 3mo ago
  You talk as if all Steam games use Steam DRM. No, it's not GOG but it's not the same category as Sony and Microsoft at all. It's starting to sound disingenuous when I see Steam lumped together with them.
  - hx8 3mo ago
    I think it's a fair comparison. Steam can change their behavior to become much more user hostile at any point, and hold our triple digit steam libraries hostage.
    - PaulKeeble 3mo ago
      Its not like we can sell or even lend the games from Steam that we have, not without breaking the licence terms and hacking around the DRM. Its precisely the same as what Sony is intending to enforce.
      - nemomarx 3mo ago
        Can you sell or lend gog games, though? You can transfer the files obviously but if a steam game comes with no drm (which is pretty common for indies) you can do the same thing. GOG nicely requires everyone on their platform to do this but ultimately the devs have to want to not put in drm too.
benoau 3mo ago
> I'm optimistic that the raise in PC gaming will act as a balance for the obvious greed of the consoles. Why? Steam has never done anything to support ownership of games, their policy completely bans transferring licenses or accounts to other people or leaving them to someone when you die. Their next CEO is someone who has only known extreme wealth their whole life and gets the job because daddy started the company, when has that been a catalyst for societal good? GOG is the only one to have advocated a different status quo, but they have virtually no marketshare that could pressure developers and publishers to accept more equitable terms beyond eschewing DRM.
- hx8 3mo ago
  I'm optimistic about PC gaming because if Steam begins acting as an evil gatekeeper then game developers can adopt other avenues to deliver the games to their players. It's an open platform. People are using Steam now because it adds value. People will stop using Steam if it subtracts value.
  - sciencejerk 3mo ago
    I'm optimistic that devs empowered by LLMs and local LLM will fight back and create new platforms if gatekeeping gets too out of hand
    - Hoodedcrow 3mo ago
      Why would anyone use slop alternatives though? I don't think people wouldn't be creating non-slop ones.
      - benoau 3mo ago
        I think the larger question is how do those marketplaces get the rights to distribute any games... this is something all Steam rivals struggle immensely with, and it's not a coding problem at all.
    - johnnyanmac 3mo ago
willdr 3mo ago
Unfortunately the AI bubble means we are witnessing the death of PC gaming. Watch the GamersNexus video, The Collapse of Personal Computing: https://youtu.be/zyQwAhppWj8 https://youtu.be/zyQwAhppWj8 Costs are driving manufacturers out of business. Essential components for PCs are becoming out of reach for the average consumer. You will own nothing and be happy.
- Gigachad 3mo ago
  GamersNexus is an entertainment channel rather than informative. He likes to talk about conspiracies with no real foundation. AI demand price hikes are affecting everything including consoles, and the hardware for game streaming. It's an everything price increase rather than just PC. nVidia isn't secretly hoarding GPUs to make you rent them from streaming platforms, they simply make more money selling them to AI companies instead.
  - erremerre 3mo ago
    It does not rally matter if there is a conspiracy behind or not. You can't buy a phone that has a new powerful processor, dual-sim, sd-card and 3.5mm jack. It is just does not exist. As user I don't care if it is a cartel or just "more profitable", but if this situation destroys companies that makes business from consoles or pc-gaming. Then it will be the colapse of the industry. First will be the hardware, once the hardware is gone, will be the software...
- hx8 3mo ago
  I would recommend looking at a wide variety of sources of information. Some YouTube channels, GamersNexus being one, focus heavily on spinning a gloomy narrative. By wide variety of information channels, I don't mean a different YouTube channel. 1. Q1-26 wasn't the worst performing YoY quarter for new PC sales since Covid. 2. The biggest sector hit was the low end computers. That's not usually what we are talking about with pc gaming. 3. Costs go up on PC gaming, but the costs are going up for consoles too. 4. New memory fabs are going to start coming online in 2027 and 2028. This is a short term crunch. 5. The whole interviewing someone in their living room about their bad professional experience and representing it as journalism feels icky to me.
Ygg2 3mo ago
> Fifteen years ago World of Warcraft was at its peak. Sixty years ago the model was you go to an arcade cabinet, and you get charged every time you died (Credit: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2026/07/03/returnal-3 https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2026/07/03/returnal-3). Ideally, they want cabinet in every home, you pay electricity for it, you buy overpriced Bluey skins, you buy your lives, you buy ads, and pay them every second for the pleasure, while not owning even the cabinet.
- autoexec 3mo ago
  > the model was you go to an arcade cabinet and you get charged every time you died Worse, some arcade games drained your health continuously while you played so no matter how good you were you'd have to keep plugging quarters into the machine.
- Telaneo 3mo ago
  Heck, even 60 years ago, you could still buy that arcade cabinet! Sure, it costs a fortune, but it was at least possible.
- Elzair 3mo ago
  I think you mean 50 years ago. 60 years ago you were largely limited to SPACEWAR! and Tennis for 2.
Schlagbohrer 3mo ago
One thing we can say for certain from 30+ years of history is that gamers will never hold to a boycott, and will always put up with worse and worse treatment from the companies.

by hx8 3mo ago

thfuran 3mo ago

I’m not nearly so optimistic. I think we have a generation of kids now who mostly never owned any physical media, having grown up with Netflix instead of vhs/dvd, Spotify instead of CDs, steam instead of retail games, etc.

hx8 3mo ago
I'm pessimistic about physical media yes. That's a legacy technology at this point.
Hoodedcrow 3mo ago
I see nothing wrong with abandoning physical media - as storage got larger and internet faster, being limited by clunky disks has become kinda pointless unless you're specifically into collecting. I see nothing wrong with moving on from them as long as it's towards local DRMless files.
- thfuran 3mo ago
  Sure, but we didn’t go from physical media to online delivery of outright purchased digital goods. We overwhelmingly transitioned to subscription streaming or “purchasing” revocably licensed copies with no guarantee of future delivery and drm on any downloaded copy.
  - Hoodedcrow 3mo ago
    I don't think it's generational. I got the impression it's a share of about every age group. Also, ownership can be a side effect for even those who don't care, just because they're used to not paying for things. For example, when I got Minecraft for free as a little kid, it was because nobody would buy it for me, while in hindsight this also meant no account that could potentially be lost when transition to Microsoft accounts began.

tayo42 3mo ago

Is there really a rise in PC gaming going on? Isn't that dependent on people having PCs and hardware?

hx8 3mo ago
Yes. Look at the market research. It's growing specifically fast in Asia, but there is also strong growth with North America. Having a PC to check your email, order off amazon, and download recipes is dying. Buying a PC and using it for video games is raising. The PC hardware is getting more expensive, but the upgrade cycles are also extending. If you look at the steam hardware survey most gamers are 1-3 GPU generations behind. If you look at the total cost of ownership PC gaming is not awful compared to consoles. It's higher, but not as high as the initial price tag makes it look. There is no monthly Playstation Plus or Xbox Live subscription. These can run between $80/yr to $240/yr. PC games often have access to deeper discounts. The PC has additional utility, and modern PC components are holding exceptional resell value.
- tayo42 3mo ago
  Hmm I see, that's interesting. Seems like the games industry it self is in a pretty bad state despite that
  - criddell 3mo ago
    If you include mobile gaming, things look a lot better.
    - sciencejerk 3mo ago
      Mobile gaming is a mess. Android is still open, but Apple devices are locked down, and bigG keeps trying to close sideloading. Subsciption micropayments ads enshittification has hit mobile gaming HARD. Not sure mobile gaming is in good shape...?
      - deleted 3mo ago

PaulKeeble 3mo ago

People still don't own their games with Steam, the main PC platform. I don't think its going under anytime soon and currently its reasonably customer friendly but as we have seen these big tech companies can turn on their customer base at any moment. GOG is about the only way to actually own the games since no DRM is applied and you can download the entire package and keep it and don't require their launcher. PC already went digital no ownership for most people unfortunately. His argument that it isn't the same doesn't wash, you still can't sell them or lend them to someone else and you have to hack around Steam's DRM, which is a loophole that can be closed at any point.

aceazzameen 3mo ago
You talk as if all Steam games use Steam DRM. No, it's not GOG but it's not the same category as Sony and Microsoft at all. It's starting to sound disingenuous when I see Steam lumped together with them.
- hx8 3mo ago
  I think it's a fair comparison. Steam can change their behavior to become much more user hostile at any point, and hold our triple digit steam libraries hostage.
  - PaulKeeble 3mo ago
    Its not like we can sell or even lend the games from Steam that we have, not without breaking the licence terms and hacking around the DRM. Its precisely the same as what Sony is intending to enforce.
    - nemomarx 3mo ago
      Can you sell or lend gog games, though? You can transfer the files obviously but if a steam game comes with no drm (which is pretty common for indies) you can do the same thing. GOG nicely requires everyone on their platform to do this but ultimately the devs have to want to not put in drm too.

benoau 3mo ago

> I'm optimistic that the raise in PC gaming will act as a balance for the obvious greed of the consoles. Why? Steam has never done anything to support ownership of games, their policy completely bans transferring licenses or accounts to other people or leaving them to someone when you die. Their next CEO is someone who has only known extreme wealth their whole life and gets the job because daddy started the company, when has that been a catalyst for societal good? GOG is the only one to have advocated a different status quo, but they have virtually no marketshare that could pressure developers and publishers to accept more equitable terms beyond eschewing DRM.

hx8 3mo ago
I'm optimistic about PC gaming because if Steam begins acting as an evil gatekeeper then game developers can adopt other avenues to deliver the games to their players. It's an open platform. People are using Steam now because it adds value. People will stop using Steam if it subtracts value.
- sciencejerk 3mo ago
  I'm optimistic that devs empowered by LLMs and local LLM will fight back and create new platforms if gatekeeping gets too out of hand
  - Hoodedcrow 3mo ago
    Why would anyone use slop alternatives though? I don't think people wouldn't be creating non-slop ones.
    - benoau 3mo ago
      I think the larger question is how do those marketplaces get the rights to distribute any games... this is something all Steam rivals struggle immensely with, and it's not a coding problem at all.
  - johnnyanmac 3mo ago

willdr 3mo ago

Unfortunately the AI bubble means we are witnessing the death of PC gaming. Watch the GamersNexus video, The Collapse of Personal Computing: https://youtu.be/zyQwAhppWj8 https://youtu.be/zyQwAhppWj8 Costs are driving manufacturers out of business. Essential components for PCs are becoming out of reach for the average consumer. You will own nothing and be happy.

Gigachad 3mo ago
GamersNexus is an entertainment channel rather than informative. He likes to talk about conspiracies with no real foundation. AI demand price hikes are affecting everything including consoles, and the hardware for game streaming. It's an everything price increase rather than just PC. nVidia isn't secretly hoarding GPUs to make you rent them from streaming platforms, they simply make more money selling them to AI companies instead.
- erremerre 3mo ago
  It does not rally matter if there is a conspiracy behind or not. You can't buy a phone that has a new powerful processor, dual-sim, sd-card and 3.5mm jack. It is just does not exist. As user I don't care if it is a cartel or just "more profitable", but if this situation destroys companies that makes business from consoles or pc-gaming. Then it will be the colapse of the industry. First will be the hardware, once the hardware is gone, will be the software...
hx8 3mo ago
I would recommend looking at a wide variety of sources of information. Some YouTube channels, GamersNexus being one, focus heavily on spinning a gloomy narrative. By wide variety of information channels, I don't mean a different YouTube channel. 1. Q1-26 wasn't the worst performing YoY quarter for new PC sales since Covid. 2. The biggest sector hit was the low end computers. That's not usually what we are talking about with pc gaming. 3. Costs go up on PC gaming, but the costs are going up for consoles too. 4. New memory fabs are going to start coming online in 2027 and 2028. This is a short term crunch. 5. The whole interviewing someone in their living room about their bad professional experience and representing it as journalism feels icky to me.

Ygg2 3mo ago

> Fifteen years ago World of Warcraft was at its peak. Sixty years ago the model was you go to an arcade cabinet, and you get charged every time you died (Credit: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2026/07/03/returnal-3 https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2026/07/03/returnal-3). Ideally, they want cabinet in every home, you pay electricity for it, you buy overpriced Bluey skins, you buy your lives, you buy ads, and pay them every second for the pleasure, while not owning even the cabinet.

autoexec 3mo ago
> the model was you go to an arcade cabinet and you get charged every time you died Worse, some arcade games drained your health continuously while you played so no matter how good you were you'd have to keep plugging quarters into the machine.
Telaneo 3mo ago
Heck, even 60 years ago, you could still buy that arcade cabinet! Sure, it costs a fortune, but it was at least possible.
Elzair 3mo ago
I think you mean 50 years ago. 60 years ago you were largely limited to SPACEWAR! and Tennis for 2.

Schlagbohrer 3mo ago

One thing we can say for certain from 30+ years of history is that gamers will never hold to a boycott, and will always put up with worse and worse treatment from the companies.