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They are not unelected. The EU Council is made up of the head of government of each member state. They are all elected. The commissioners are picked by the hea

They are not unelected. The EU Council is made up of the head of government of each member state. They are all elected. The commissioners are picked by the heads of state (elected) and the EU parliament (also elected). This does not absolve them from wrongdoing, but you should understand where your complaints should be directed at.

joe_mamba 4mo ago
>They are not unelected. After how many layers does the democratic part get watered down and is just members of the elite picking other elites? Role | Chosen by | Direct citizen vote? -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------- Commission President | European Council proposes, European Parliament elects| No (indirect via EP) European Council President | European Council (27 heads of state) | No European Parliament President| MEPs elect from among themselves | No (indirect via EP) ECB President | European Council, after consulting Parliament | No
- surgical_fire 4mo ago
  I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him. By your own ridiculous standards, I don't live in a democracy. I fact, any paliamentarism would not be democratic based on that.
  - joe_mamba 4mo ago
    >I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him. That's kind of whataboutism. If that works for your country and the people are happy with the arrangement and the results of this system, I don't see an issue. >By your own ridiculous standards I don't think direct accountability to the citizens is a ridiculous concept. If you're unhappy with a MEP, your prime minister, you can vote them out or protest till they quit. But the head of the EC, Ursula, is impossible to dethrone by the people via democratic vote or protest. You're stuck taking up the ass from someone you never voted for and don't support.
    - CrisMystik 4mo ago
      > the head of the EC, Ursula, is impossible to dethrone by the people via democratic vote or protest The Commission can be dismissed by the Parliament, with a majority of its members and 2/3 of votes cast
  - constantius 4mo ago
    Not the parent, but chill with the aggressive tone. When you vote in your elections, you almost certainly know who's going to lead the country. Not so with the EU: look up Spitzenkandidat method and the deviations from it, including von der Leyen in 2019 being parachuted into her post not based on any vote.
    - surgical_fire 4mo ago
      No, I would rather people in this thread chilled with misinformation. My tone is appropriate.
      - constantius 4mo ago
        I think those people are largely in your imagination. You seem to be assuming a whole lot of dark motives or unsavoury opinions in reaction to people simply saying the EU is not perfect. Unrelated to this chat, but I wonder what your political leaning is, just to understand where this aggressive defense of the EU is coming from. I assume you're not left or right, not radical in any direction. Would you describe yourself as moderate/centrist/Starmer's Labour/Macronite?
        surgical_fire 4mo ago
        > I think those people are largely in your imagination. Nope, they are in this very thread, complaining about "unelected" officials. Initially I dismissed this as a product of ignorance, but they keep repeating the same bullshit after being corrected. It is clearly bad faith. > You seem to be assuming a whole lot of dark motives or unsavoury opinions in reaction to people simply saying the EU is not perfect. That is not the argument. The EU is far from perfect, and if that's the discussion, I wouls have a lot of things to say about it. > but I wonder what your political leaning is, just to understand where this aggressive defense of the EU is coming from. I tend to see myself as left of center, although I did drift further to the left over time. I am not from the UK to describe myself in in the UK political spectrum, although looking from the outside I have the impression Labour is largely ineffective and Starmer is (was?) running the government pretty much as the tories would have. I am also not French. My understanding is that for French standards Macron is center-right? Not sure if this answered your question.
- yorwba 4mo ago
  Those are primarily figureheads with limited power. The EU is not a presidential system. Which is good, because a single person can never well-represent an entire population, directly elected or not. The council is more problematic, since a blocking majority might only represent 25% of the population (half of the EU member governments, each elected by majority vote), but in this case they voted in favor, so it's as if they didn't exist and the decision lies with parliament, whose composition is determined by proportional representation. Excellent! The interesting thing here is that the EU is accused of being undemocratic not because special interests killed a law with wide support among the populace, but because all the different bodies might actually agree and pass a law that privacy activists don't like. Legislation by agreement of multiple cross-cutting majorities must clearly be undemocratic!
- izacus 4mo ago
  By this standard there are no democracies in the world. Stop being ridiculous and repeating dumb russian propaganda.
mattrighetti 4mo ago
They’re indirectly elected through national governments and parliament. That’s different from being directly elected by citizens. Being appointed by elected politicians doesn’t make someone directly accountable to voters. Citizens don’t vote for commissioners, and it’s much harder for voters to remove or reward them based on their policies.
- vrganj 4mo ago
  So is the US president (Electoral College), the UK PM (Parliament) etc etc, yet you never hear complaints here from the same types. Their opposition is ideological, democracy is just an excuse because their true views would be too unsavory to say out loud.
  - mattrighetti 4mo ago
    The criticism is about accountability, not whether the system is democratic. The UK pm and the POTUS are both ultimately accountable through elections. In the UK, a general election can change the government. In the US, people vote specifically for presidential electors, even if it’s through the Electoral College. The EU commission is different. People don’t vote for commissioners or the president, and they can’t vote them out in the same direct way.
    - briandear 4mo ago
      100%. This is why many of us have a problem with the EU. And world governments in general — the more power they have and the further away from the elections that keep them accountable, the more tyrannical they become.
      - surgical_fire 4mo ago
        Again, it is the member states governments pushing for the thing you are calling "tyrannical". It is the EU parliament constantly blocking it. If anything, the EU is curtailing the undemocratic tendencies of member states.
zrn900 4mo ago
If you water down democracy 2-3 times, it's no longer democracy.

joe_mamba 4mo ago

>They are not unelected. After how many layers does the democratic part get watered down and is just members of the elite picking other elites? Role | Chosen by | Direct citizen vote? -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------- Commission President | European Council proposes, European Parliament elects| No (indirect via EP) European Council President | European Council (27 heads of state) | No European Parliament President| MEPs elect from among themselves | No (indirect via EP) ECB President | European Council, after consulting Parliament | No

surgical_fire 4mo ago
I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him. By your own ridiculous standards, I don't live in a democracy. I fact, any paliamentarism would not be democratic based on that.
- joe_mamba 4mo ago
  >I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him. That's kind of whataboutism. If that works for your country and the people are happy with the arrangement and the results of this system, I don't see an issue. >By your own ridiculous standards I don't think direct accountability to the citizens is a ridiculous concept. If you're unhappy with a MEP, your prime minister, you can vote them out or protest till they quit. But the head of the EC, Ursula, is impossible to dethrone by the people via democratic vote or protest. You're stuck taking up the ass from someone you never voted for and don't support.
  - CrisMystik 4mo ago
    > the head of the EC, Ursula, is impossible to dethrone by the people via democratic vote or protest The Commission can be dismissed by the Parliament, with a majority of its members and 2/3 of votes cast
- constantius 4mo ago
  Not the parent, but chill with the aggressive tone. When you vote in your elections, you almost certainly know who's going to lead the country. Not so with the EU: look up Spitzenkandidat method and the deviations from it, including von der Leyen in 2019 being parachuted into her post not based on any vote.
  - surgical_fire 4mo ago
    No, I would rather people in this thread chilled with misinformation. My tone is appropriate.
    - constantius 4mo ago
      I think those people are largely in your imagination. You seem to be assuming a whole lot of dark motives or unsavoury opinions in reaction to people simply saying the EU is not perfect. Unrelated to this chat, but I wonder what your political leaning is, just to understand where this aggressive defense of the EU is coming from. I assume you're not left or right, not radical in any direction. Would you describe yourself as moderate/centrist/Starmer's Labour/Macronite?
      - surgical_fire 4mo ago
        > I think those people are largely in your imagination. Nope, they are in this very thread, complaining about "unelected" officials. Initially I dismissed this as a product of ignorance, but they keep repeating the same bullshit after being corrected. It is clearly bad faith. > You seem to be assuming a whole lot of dark motives or unsavoury opinions in reaction to people simply saying the EU is not perfect. That is not the argument. The EU is far from perfect, and if that's the discussion, I wouls have a lot of things to say about it. > but I wonder what your political leaning is, just to understand where this aggressive defense of the EU is coming from. I tend to see myself as left of center, although I did drift further to the left over time. I am not from the UK to describe myself in in the UK political spectrum, although looking from the outside I have the impression Labour is largely ineffective and Starmer is (was?) running the government pretty much as the tories would have. I am also not French. My understanding is that for French standards Macron is center-right? Not sure if this answered your question.
yorwba 4mo ago
Those are primarily figureheads with limited power. The EU is not a presidential system. Which is good, because a single person can never well-represent an entire population, directly elected or not. The council is more problematic, since a blocking majority might only represent 25% of the population (half of the EU member governments, each elected by majority vote), but in this case they voted in favor, so it's as if they didn't exist and the decision lies with parliament, whose composition is determined by proportional representation. Excellent! The interesting thing here is that the EU is accused of being undemocratic not because special interests killed a law with wide support among the populace, but because all the different bodies might actually agree and pass a law that privacy activists don't like. Legislation by agreement of multiple cross-cutting majorities must clearly be undemocratic!
izacus 4mo ago
By this standard there are no democracies in the world. Stop being ridiculous and repeating dumb russian propaganda.

mattrighetti 4mo ago

They’re indirectly elected through national governments and parliament. That’s different from being directly elected by citizens. Being appointed by elected politicians doesn’t make someone directly accountable to voters. Citizens don’t vote for commissioners, and it’s much harder for voters to remove or reward them based on their policies.

vrganj 4mo ago
So is the US president (Electoral College), the UK PM (Parliament) etc etc, yet you never hear complaints here from the same types. Their opposition is ideological, democracy is just an excuse because their true views would be too unsavory to say out loud.
- mattrighetti 4mo ago
  The criticism is about accountability, not whether the system is democratic. The UK pm and the POTUS are both ultimately accountable through elections. In the UK, a general election can change the government. In the US, people vote specifically for presidential electors, even if it’s through the Electoral College. The EU commission is different. People don’t vote for commissioners or the president, and they can’t vote them out in the same direct way.
  - briandear 4mo ago
    100%. This is why many of us have a problem with the EU. And world governments in general — the more power they have and the further away from the elections that keep them accountable, the more tyrannical they become.
    - surgical_fire 4mo ago
      Again, it is the member states governments pushing for the thing you are calling "tyrannical". It is the EU parliament constantly blocking it. If anything, the EU is curtailing the undemocratic tendencies of member states.

zrn900 4mo ago

If you water down democracy 2-3 times, it's no longer democracy.