4 ms·

If you haven't lived in Seattle, it's hard to understand the problem. It's multifaceted; business climate, generally poor quality of the city itself as a walkin

If you haven't lived in Seattle, it's hard to understand the problem. It's multifaceted; business climate, generally poor quality of the city itself as a walking / working destination, extremely hostile to business city government, and greener pastures (literally) east across the bay, which happen to be closer to some very large headquarters. The die was largely cast when Amazon called Seattle's bluff during COVID and relocated, but so much needs to be done to make the city itself an attractive place to live and work, and there is so little planning, zoning or effective change happening it seems likely to be decades before I could imagine a truly vibrant city core. Even when I write that, it seems unlikely. As we speak, Seattle is aiming to become the highest tax jurisdiction in the country, higher even than NYC, because ... revenues are down. It's a disappointing response to a serious urban problem.

DenisM 3mo ago
How did Amazon relocate? I think most employees are still traveling to SLU to their offices.
- Schiendelman 3mo ago
  Amazon didn't "relocate" - they just moved most of their new hiring to Bellevue.
  - fhrow4484 3mo ago
    If you pay attention to the WARN layoffs notices you'd also see they fired at a much higher rate in Seattle compared to Bellevue. So faster hiring east side. Faster firing west side. It's a soft relocation
    - Schiendelman 3mo ago
      I think raw numbers are misleading - they have more Seattle employees, so per capita WARN rate is more interesting. Do you know what the percentage impacts were?
- vessenes 3mo ago
  Amazon hq2 is in dc; beezy no longer frequents el gaucho on Thursday nights, instead he is in Miami. They massively pulled back Seattle office and hiring ca 2021-22
com2kid 3mo ago
Seattle's DT business district had always been uniquely bad. Everything is for office workers and closes at 5pm. There is nothing else but offices and restaurants serving coffee for breakfast and workplace meeting suitable lunches. It is an example of piss poor planning and urban design.
- Schiendelman 3mo ago
  We made a lot of gains there just before covid, but it's a fight against empty space. We simply need more residential growth in the core. South Lake Union has improved a lot in the last two years, and Denny Triangle is coming along too. That will help north downtown, it's just going to take time, and there's not much we can do now to speed it up. There was a 1993 initiative that seriously fucked up our planning process, and created 'design review', which is designed to add a year or two to building a building by having architects and retirees shit on everything. It's very hard to roll those things back, because many people believe public input is inherently good. Pioneer Square is its own mess - it's that we have too much control, so we made it nearly impossible to build more market rate housing there to support evening and weekend destinations.
  - com2kid 3mo ago
    One of my regrets is not joining my area's design review board when it had an opening just so I could rubber stamp everything yes.
    - Schiendelman 3mo ago
      Oooh I would have appreciated you! Maybe you can do that where you live now!
      - com2kid 3mo ago
        The NE Seattle one has an opening a few years back that I should've tried applying for. Thankfully the design review process has been neutered now and hopefully it doesn't get brought back!
Schiendelman 3mo ago
Seattle here. The problem isn't that there's too little "planning" or "zoning". Where that's relevant, there's too much. The city has used those tools over and over to slow growth and tack on requirements for businesses. I'm not aligned with the new mayor's business-hostile policies. But as far as making the city better for walking, things are going very well. We've been narrowing crossing distances, improving sidewalks, putting in concrete separation for bike lanes, we even finally kicked cars out of Pike Place Market. There are parks improvements in progress across the city to improve restrooms and fix dangerous spots. And the number of people in tent encampments has dropped dramatically, it's become rare and short lived in most of the city. I suspect that we will continue to recover, despite the capital gains tax. It'll just be slower than Bellevue.
- tired-turtle 3mo ago
  > And the number of people in tent encampments has dropped dramatically, it's become rare and short lived in most of the city. Do you have any data to support this claim?
  - Schiendelman 3mo ago
    Lots. https://harrell.seattle.gov/2024/12/03/one-seattle-homelessness-action-plan-posts-q3-2024-data-updates/ https://harrell.seattle.gov/2024/12/03/one-seattle-homelessn... From over 700 tents in 22 to under 200 by the end of 24. Removals, regardless of how you feel about whether this is good policy, are continuing unabated when reported: https://www.kuow.org/stories/is-seattle-sweeping-more-homeless-camps-for-the-world-cup https://www.kuow.org/stories/is-seattle-sweeping-more-homele...
    - tired-turtle 3mo ago
      And what has happened since 2024? https://kcrha.org/news-2026-point-in-time-pit-count-initial-report https://kcrha.org/news-2026-point-in-time-pit-count-initial-...
      - 3mo ago
seawolf874 3mo ago
The city has a notorious open air drug market within 2 blocks of one of its main tourist attractions at Pike Place. Downtown is generally not a pleasant place to visit.
- id00 3mo ago
  A few years back when I worked in the Seattle downtown, I used to have a walk around the office during lunchtime. I still remember seeing a drug addict baking what I assume was heroin just a block away from Pike Place Markets. It's crazy
- anon7000 3mo ago
  I lived near there for several years. It’s bad but also highly localized. The extreme downtown core is such a small part of the city. Pioneer square, the waterfront, SLU, Seattle center, etc are all very nearly downtown. Area around the new convention center, the paramount, and 5th Ave theatre are totally fine.
- lenocinor 3mo ago
  I live near Pike Place Market currently and have for years. There is no open air drug market anywhere nearby. Some people doing drugs, and occasionally dealing to each other, but nothing like what you’re describing.
wenc 3mo ago
I've lived all over the country, both in big and small cities, and most recently in the Seattle area (across the lake in Kirkland) for 4 years. Seattle has trappings of a city, but socially it doesn't feel like one in the way Chicago and NYC are (ok they're bigger, but hear me out -- it's not the size, it's the people). To me, Seattle feels like Cleveland but with more money. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I would visit different neighborhoods from Capitol Hill to ID to Northgate to Ballard (I liked Ballard the most) almost every weekend, and everything just felt so subdued compared to a city that is truly alive. I had to take trips to Vancouver -- a similar city but more alive -- just to get my dose of city energy. Even Lynnwood WA -- a suburb -- had more energy. The city itself has too much monoculture -- predominantly tech bros or hipsters or nature people -- but that's not enough diversity to create true energy. The food scene was uniquely mediocre relative to its wealth and size. It had pockets of good stuff, but overall just very little risk-taking and experimentation in the restaurant industry because of the economics (min wage is $21.30 which is fair to workers but hard for small business owners) and insufficient population density to turn tables at a high rate (the land is fragmented by water and mixed elevation), and high proportion of food-as-fuel population. Seattle attracts who it attracts because of what it is -- introverted, nature loving, affluent in a countercultural way. But this does not create a vibrant city. Seattle's social energy resembles that of a paradoxical population who want to live in a city but are secretly suburban people.
- operatingthetan 3mo ago
  >Even Lynnwood WA -- a suburb -- had more energy. I'm sorry but this is so beyond the pale. Also your comment complains about the energy of the city (that it is too suburban feeling) and then you say you like Ballard the most -- which is by far the most suburban of the neighborhoods you mentioned. Finally we've been hosting the world cup and news writers from around the world have been exclaiming that Seattle has absolutely peak energy and culture as a host. E.g. https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2026/06/22/keith-duggan-seattle-appeared-magical-the-us-may-have-found-its-natural-football-home/ https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2026/06/22/keith-dug...
  - wenc 3mo ago
operatingthetan 3mo ago
>If you haven't lived in Seattle, it's hard to understand the problem. [...] >greener pastures (literally) east across the bay Well obviously you haven't lived in Seattle because if you did you would know the body of water separating Seattle and Bellevue is Lake Washington. Not a bay.
- vessenes 3mo ago
  I live west across the Salish sea on sunny bainbridge island, natch.
  - operatingthetan 3mo ago
    Nice attempt at recovery but your comment still doesn't make sense. You were talking about Seattle, and then suggested Bellevue was "greener pastures." Not that Seattle was "greener pastures" from Bainbridge lol. Also you just admitted that you don't live in Seattle. So I rest my case.
    - solid_fuel 3mo ago
      It always plays out like this. "Downtown seattle is a war zone, if you don't live there you can't understand!" Then it turns out they live in Enumclaw.
      - 0x1d7 3mo ago
        It’s all love and horses in Enumclaw.
        snypher 3mo ago
        The world's most tired comment.
        0x1d7 3mo ago
        It takes a lot of energy to love a horse.
anon7000 3mo ago
Seattle is generally a fairly high quality city as walkability and bikeability goes. While office vacancies are up, sure, residential vacancies are not. The city is packed with people who enjoy and want to live here. The handful of blocks that makes up the business district aren’t as busy as they used to be, but that’s such a small part of the city. Also, Amazon did not really “relocate” as much as open more offices in other cities. I know people supporting Amazon ELT and plenty of high level executives are here. They have huge amounts of money, employees, and office space in Seattle, and there’s no sign that’s changing. The areas close to Amazon’s office space are very attractive places to live, demanding high rent, and generally safe, green, and pleasant to exist in. (I lived near there for a few years.) The high rise apartments that have been opening year after year for a decade in these neighborhoods still have strong demand. Am I selling it positively? Sure. But you’re selling it pretty negatively, in a way that doesn’t match what many people who live here really believe. Anyways, Seattle has tax problems mostly because there is no income tax. But it is a challenge: to actually make the city safe and vibrant and even more great, we need to invest in public transit, biking, parks, and schools.

DenisM 3mo ago

How did Amazon relocate? I think most employees are still traveling to SLU to their offices.

Schiendelman 3mo ago
Amazon didn't "relocate" - they just moved most of their new hiring to Bellevue.
- fhrow4484 3mo ago
  If you pay attention to the WARN layoffs notices you'd also see they fired at a much higher rate in Seattle compared to Bellevue. So faster hiring east side. Faster firing west side. It's a soft relocation
  - Schiendelman 3mo ago
    I think raw numbers are misleading - they have more Seattle employees, so per capita WARN rate is more interesting. Do you know what the percentage impacts were?
vessenes 3mo ago
Amazon hq2 is in dc; beezy no longer frequents el gaucho on Thursday nights, instead he is in Miami. They massively pulled back Seattle office and hiring ca 2021-22

com2kid 3mo ago

Seattle's DT business district had always been uniquely bad. Everything is for office workers and closes at 5pm. There is nothing else but offices and restaurants serving coffee for breakfast and workplace meeting suitable lunches. It is an example of piss poor planning and urban design.

Schiendelman 3mo ago
We made a lot of gains there just before covid, but it's a fight against empty space. We simply need more residential growth in the core. South Lake Union has improved a lot in the last two years, and Denny Triangle is coming along too. That will help north downtown, it's just going to take time, and there's not much we can do now to speed it up. There was a 1993 initiative that seriously fucked up our planning process, and created 'design review', which is designed to add a year or two to building a building by having architects and retirees shit on everything. It's very hard to roll those things back, because many people believe public input is inherently good. Pioneer Square is its own mess - it's that we have too much control, so we made it nearly impossible to build more market rate housing there to support evening and weekend destinations.
- com2kid 3mo ago
  One of my regrets is not joining my area's design review board when it had an opening just so I could rubber stamp everything yes.
  - Schiendelman 3mo ago
    Oooh I would have appreciated you! Maybe you can do that where you live now!
    - com2kid 3mo ago
      The NE Seattle one has an opening a few years back that I should've tried applying for. Thankfully the design review process has been neutered now and hopefully it doesn't get brought back!

Schiendelman 3mo ago

Seattle here. The problem isn't that there's too little "planning" or "zoning". Where that's relevant, there's too much. The city has used those tools over and over to slow growth and tack on requirements for businesses. I'm not aligned with the new mayor's business-hostile policies. But as far as making the city better for walking, things are going very well. We've been narrowing crossing distances, improving sidewalks, putting in concrete separation for bike lanes, we even finally kicked cars out of Pike Place Market. There are parks improvements in progress across the city to improve restrooms and fix dangerous spots. And the number of people in tent encampments has dropped dramatically, it's become rare and short lived in most of the city. I suspect that we will continue to recover, despite the capital gains tax. It'll just be slower than Bellevue.

tired-turtle 3mo ago
> And the number of people in tent encampments has dropped dramatically, it's become rare and short lived in most of the city. Do you have any data to support this claim?
- Schiendelman 3mo ago
  Lots. https://harrell.seattle.gov/2024/12/03/one-seattle-homelessness-action-plan-posts-q3-2024-data-updates/ https://harrell.seattle.gov/2024/12/03/one-seattle-homelessn... From over 700 tents in 22 to under 200 by the end of 24. Removals, regardless of how you feel about whether this is good policy, are continuing unabated when reported: https://www.kuow.org/stories/is-seattle-sweeping-more-homeless-camps-for-the-world-cup https://www.kuow.org/stories/is-seattle-sweeping-more-homele...
  - tired-turtle 3mo ago
    And what has happened since 2024? https://kcrha.org/news-2026-point-in-time-pit-count-initial-report https://kcrha.org/news-2026-point-in-time-pit-count-initial-...
    - 3mo ago

seawolf874 3mo ago

The city has a notorious open air drug market within 2 blocks of one of its main tourist attractions at Pike Place. Downtown is generally not a pleasant place to visit.

id00 3mo ago
A few years back when I worked in the Seattle downtown, I used to have a walk around the office during lunchtime. I still remember seeing a drug addict baking what I assume was heroin just a block away from Pike Place Markets. It's crazy
anon7000 3mo ago
I lived near there for several years. It’s bad but also highly localized. The extreme downtown core is such a small part of the city. Pioneer square, the waterfront, SLU, Seattle center, etc are all very nearly downtown. Area around the new convention center, the paramount, and 5th Ave theatre are totally fine.
lenocinor 3mo ago
I live near Pike Place Market currently and have for years. There is no open air drug market anywhere nearby. Some people doing drugs, and occasionally dealing to each other, but nothing like what you’re describing.

wenc 3mo ago

I've lived all over the country, both in big and small cities, and most recently in the Seattle area (across the lake in Kirkland) for 4 years. Seattle has trappings of a city, but socially it doesn't feel like one in the way Chicago and NYC are (ok they're bigger, but hear me out -- it's not the size, it's the people). To me, Seattle feels like Cleveland but with more money. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I would visit different neighborhoods from Capitol Hill to ID to Northgate to Ballard (I liked Ballard the most) almost every weekend, and everything just felt so subdued compared to a city that is truly alive. I had to take trips to Vancouver -- a similar city but more alive -- just to get my dose of city energy. Even Lynnwood WA -- a suburb -- had more energy. The city itself has too much monoculture -- predominantly tech bros or hipsters or nature people -- but that's not enough diversity to create true energy. The food scene was uniquely mediocre relative to its wealth and size. It had pockets of good stuff, but overall just very little risk-taking and experimentation in the restaurant industry because of the economics (min wage is $21.30 which is fair to workers but hard for small business owners) and insufficient population density to turn tables at a high rate (the land is fragmented by water and mixed elevation), and high proportion of food-as-fuel population. Seattle attracts who it attracts because of what it is -- introverted, nature loving, affluent in a countercultural way. But this does not create a vibrant city. Seattle's social energy resembles that of a paradoxical population who want to live in a city but are secretly suburban people.

operatingthetan 3mo ago
>Even Lynnwood WA -- a suburb -- had more energy. I'm sorry but this is so beyond the pale. Also your comment complains about the energy of the city (that it is too suburban feeling) and then you say you like Ballard the most -- which is by far the most suburban of the neighborhoods you mentioned. Finally we've been hosting the world cup and news writers from around the world have been exclaiming that Seattle has absolutely peak energy and culture as a host. E.g. https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2026/06/22/keith-duggan-seattle-appeared-magical-the-us-may-have-found-its-natural-football-home/ https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2026/06/22/keith-dug...
- wenc 3mo ago

operatingthetan 3mo ago

>If you haven't lived in Seattle, it's hard to understand the problem. [...] >greener pastures (literally) east across the bay Well obviously you haven't lived in Seattle because if you did you would know the body of water separating Seattle and Bellevue is Lake Washington. Not a bay.

vessenes 3mo ago
I live west across the Salish sea on sunny bainbridge island, natch.
- operatingthetan 3mo ago
  Nice attempt at recovery but your comment still doesn't make sense. You were talking about Seattle, and then suggested Bellevue was "greener pastures." Not that Seattle was "greener pastures" from Bainbridge lol. Also you just admitted that you don't live in Seattle. So I rest my case.
  - solid_fuel 3mo ago
    It always plays out like this. "Downtown seattle is a war zone, if you don't live there you can't understand!" Then it turns out they live in Enumclaw.
    - 0x1d7 3mo ago
      It’s all love and horses in Enumclaw.
      - snypher 3mo ago
        The world's most tired comment.
        0x1d7 3mo ago
        It takes a lot of energy to love a horse.

anon7000 3mo ago

Seattle is generally a fairly high quality city as walkability and bikeability goes. While office vacancies are up, sure, residential vacancies are not. The city is packed with people who enjoy and want to live here. The handful of blocks that makes up the business district aren’t as busy as they used to be, but that’s such a small part of the city. Also, Amazon did not really “relocate” as much as open more offices in other cities. I know people supporting Amazon ELT and plenty of high level executives are here. They have huge amounts of money, employees, and office space in Seattle, and there’s no sign that’s changing. The areas close to Amazon’s office space are very attractive places to live, demanding high rent, and generally safe, green, and pleasant to exist in. (I lived near there for a few years.) The high rise apartments that have been opening year after year for a decade in these neighborhoods still have strong demand. Am I selling it positively? Sure. But you’re selling it pretty negatively, in a way that doesn’t match what many people who live here really believe. Anyways, Seattle has tax problems mostly because there is no income tax. But it is a challenge: to actually make the city safe and vibrant and even more great, we need to invest in public transit, biking, parks, and schools.