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Link to actual results page: http://transparency.org/cpi2012/results http://transparency.org/cpi2012/results My question is, how do they classify "corruption"?

Link to actual results page: http://transparency.org/cpi2012/results http://transparency.org/cpi2012/results My question is, how do they classify "corruption"? And how did they get surveys into North Korea?

mikeash 14y ago
Definitely interested in more details about NK. I generally think of corruption as bribery, and NK seems like the sort of place where government officials would mostly not take bribes, what with the gulags and whatnot that no doubt lie in store for anyone who gets caught. But perhaps my picture of the place is upside down, or there's more to corruption than just that.
- kyllo 14y ago
  The info about North Korea is likely comprised of speculation and/or anecdotes of NK escapees and UN observers. Corruption is not just bribery though, it's also fraud, embezzlement, smuggling, etc. North Korea is printing millions of counterfeit US dollars and conducting illegal trade in arms and narcotics to fund its government and army and personally enrich their officials. NK also has a failed currency with a black market exchange rate that is about 30x higher than the official exchange rate, therefore almost every monetary transaction in North Korea is technically an act of corruption.
- Cashmonkey 14y ago
  I believe it's all about transparency. Lack of transparency indicates corruption. NK isn't transparent.
Coincoin 14y ago
> how do they classify "corruption"? I was asking myself the same about lobbying. Is lobbying some form of "legalized corruption"? Reading their explanation just made me even more confused, they don't even seem to know themselves. http://blog.transparency.org/2009/09/14/what-is-%E2%80%98lobbying%E2%80%99-and-its-link-to-corruption/ http://blog.transparency.org/2009/09/14/what-is-%E2%80%98lob...
- mseebach 14y ago
  That's the beauty of measuring perception instead of the real thing.
- saraid216 14y ago
  Strictly defined, lobbying is about educating representatives on behalf of special interests. However, lobbying is a lot like sales. Even if what you're selling isn't actually the best product for your customer, you still have a vested (if somewhat conflicted) interest in convincing them to buy it. Similarly, even if your special interest isn't actually the best policy for the public of which you're a part, you still have a vested interest in convincing them to enact it. Sales and marketing spend a lot of time, money, and effort on building a positive association in your mind with their brand. This is a very standard and well-accepted technique, and it's the same technique that lobbyists apply when they loophole bribery by inviting people to lavish get-togethers for business meetings. The reason it's okay when it comes to business transactions, but not okay in government policy is simply because it violates the social contract. If not for that, a backroom negotiation that results in a negative government policy is not much different from a big corporation buying your favorite startup and making its product suck as a result. The fundamental problem is identical: the difference is the amount of say you expected to have.
bcoates 14y ago
It's a meta-study aggregating about 13 surveys. The things being measured by the underlying surveys vary but mostly seem to center on government-employee bribery and misuse of public funds. Most of the surveys are expert surveys not of the general public, and some of them use out-of-country researchers. It looks like 3 of the surveys reported data for NK and they're all outsiders.
tobyjsullivan 14y ago
I believe the keywords on that graphic would be "perceived corruption." In consistency with the other comments, that implies that it is based on surveys of the public.

mikeash 14y ago

Definitely interested in more details about NK. I generally think of corruption as bribery, and NK seems like the sort of place where government officials would mostly not take bribes, what with the gulags and whatnot that no doubt lie in store for anyone who gets caught. But perhaps my picture of the place is upside down, or there's more to corruption than just that.

kyllo 14y ago
The info about North Korea is likely comprised of speculation and/or anecdotes of NK escapees and UN observers. Corruption is not just bribery though, it's also fraud, embezzlement, smuggling, etc. North Korea is printing millions of counterfeit US dollars and conducting illegal trade in arms and narcotics to fund its government and army and personally enrich their officials. NK also has a failed currency with a black market exchange rate that is about 30x higher than the official exchange rate, therefore almost every monetary transaction in North Korea is technically an act of corruption.
Cashmonkey 14y ago
I believe it's all about transparency. Lack of transparency indicates corruption. NK isn't transparent.

Coincoin 14y ago

> how do they classify "corruption"? I was asking myself the same about lobbying. Is lobbying some form of "legalized corruption"? Reading their explanation just made me even more confused, they don't even seem to know themselves. http://blog.transparency.org/2009/09/14/what-is-%E2%80%98lobbying%E2%80%99-and-its-link-to-corruption/ http://blog.transparency.org/2009/09/14/what-is-%E2%80%98lob...

mseebach 14y ago
That's the beauty of measuring perception instead of the real thing.
saraid216 14y ago
Strictly defined, lobbying is about educating representatives on behalf of special interests. However, lobbying is a lot like sales. Even if what you're selling isn't actually the best product for your customer, you still have a vested (if somewhat conflicted) interest in convincing them to buy it. Similarly, even if your special interest isn't actually the best policy for the public of which you're a part, you still have a vested interest in convincing them to enact it. Sales and marketing spend a lot of time, money, and effort on building a positive association in your mind with their brand. This is a very standard and well-accepted technique, and it's the same technique that lobbyists apply when they loophole bribery by inviting people to lavish get-togethers for business meetings. The reason it's okay when it comes to business transactions, but not okay in government policy is simply because it violates the social contract. If not for that, a backroom negotiation that results in a negative government policy is not much different from a big corporation buying your favorite startup and making its product suck as a result. The fundamental problem is identical: the difference is the amount of say you expected to have.

bcoates 14y ago

It's a meta-study aggregating about 13 surveys. The things being measured by the underlying surveys vary but mostly seem to center on government-employee bribery and misuse of public funds. Most of the surveys are expert surveys not of the general public, and some of them use out-of-country researchers. It looks like 3 of the surveys reported data for NK and they're all outsiders.

tobyjsullivan 14y ago

I believe the keywords on that graphic would be "perceived corruption." In consistency with the other comments, that implies that it is based on surveys of the public.