3 ms·

“if we get this right” is doing a whole lot of heavy lifting here.

by hack1312 3mo ago

piloto_ciego 3mo ago
But that’s the thing! We could and we can!
- throwaway-11-1 3mo ago
  “We” can’t even effectively distribute food, healthcare and housing yet but yeah I’m sure capital will totally figure it out if we build enough machines that just accumulate more wealth to the richest people in history. I love cool new tech but I’m perfectly aware it will not do shit to solve any problem other than “eliminate or make labor cheaper”
  - piloto_ciego 3mo ago
    I mean, there are less starving people than there were in most of the world. We've made progress. In my lifetime we've made progress! I mean, there are momentary set backs and they are egregious, I agree with that for sure, but the world is wildly better than it was in the early 90s or early 00s. I was there (cue Elrond meme), I remember. And god forbid you were gay back then, or had an ailment that needed some high tech treatment, or needed to talk to someone on the other side of the planet for any reason, or wanted to have access to knoeledge. We've come so far, and the people yapping about how "everything is the worst" are reactionary. Yes there are problems, I don't want to downplay them. But largely, until very recently, things were getting better en masse and zoomed out enough in time that trend will likely continue if we don't blow it all up or do something stupid like decide that science is too scary to do. What I mostly see in these threads is "Capitalist Realism" - people can't even imagine things turning out some way other than "capital controls everything forever."
    - throwaway-11-1 3mo ago
      Your response is not addressing my claims, homelessness is increasing, life expectancy is lagging poorer countries and there are still food security issues not being addressed in the richest country in history. I’m discussing material outcomes and you want to focus on social progress….which is fine I guess? Anyway I have receipts https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth,%20in%20years,%201980-2024 https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-lif... https://www.unc.edu/discover/u-s-life-expectancy-drop-caused-by-more-than-pandemic/ https://www.unc.edu/discover/u-s-life-expectancy-drop-caused... https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us/key-statistics-graphics https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo... https://www.security.org/resources/homeless-statistics/ https://www.security.org/resources/homeless-statistics/
      - ben_w 3mo ago
        Those are all US stats. US got problems. World's much bigger than the US, and is getting better: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?time=1770..2023&country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?time=1770... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/prevalence-of-undernourishment?country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/prevalence-of-undernouris... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-population-living-in-extreme-poverty-by-world-region https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-population-living-i...
        throwaway-11-1 3mo ago
        Yeah that’s totally fair and really good to see. It’s maybe the one perspective that gives me some hope
        omicronxt 3mo ago
        Our world in data is neoliberal think tank supported by billionares. They got bad reputation of misrepresenting data to favor capitalism as inherently progressive.
- roughly 3mo ago
  None of the problems with building a utopia are technological, all of the problems are social and political. What the people arguing with you are telling you is that if you ignore the social and political problems, you're going to continue to create exactly the same kinds of problems that have been caused by every other attempt to solve social and political problems with technology. When you can figure out why people in the richest country on earth lack access to health care and food, neither of which are currently limited by actual abundance or availability, we can start talking about whatever other material things you think we need to live in paradise.
  - JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
    > None of the problems with building a utopia are technological Of course they are. Pre-Green revolution humanity probably couldn’t make a utopia. Currently, I’d argue we need way more energy to make utopia-like conditions available to all. Technology isn’t sufficient. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s unnecessary, unless one’s utopia permits dying horribly of infection due to minor cuts and abrasions.
    - roughly 3mo ago
      > Pre-Green revolution humanity probably couldn’t make a utopia. Post-Green revolution humanity hasn’t pulled it off either.
      - piloto_ciego 3mo ago
        It's a lot better than it was for the average human on earth than it was a couple centuries ago. Utopia can't happen overnight.
        expedition32 3mo ago
        Infamously the 19th century saw declining living conditions in my country despite the technological and scientific progress. It is socialism that gets us to utopia not the technology.

“if we get this right” is doing a whole lot of heavy lifting here.

piloto_ciego 3mo ago

But that’s the thing! We could and we can!

throwaway-11-1 3mo ago
“We” can’t even effectively distribute food, healthcare and housing yet but yeah I’m sure capital will totally figure it out if we build enough machines that just accumulate more wealth to the richest people in history. I love cool new tech but I’m perfectly aware it will not do shit to solve any problem other than “eliminate or make labor cheaper”
- piloto_ciego 3mo ago
  I mean, there are less starving people than there were in most of the world. We've made progress. In my lifetime we've made progress! I mean, there are momentary set backs and they are egregious, I agree with that for sure, but the world is wildly better than it was in the early 90s or early 00s. I was there (cue Elrond meme), I remember. And god forbid you were gay back then, or had an ailment that needed some high tech treatment, or needed to talk to someone on the other side of the planet for any reason, or wanted to have access to knoeledge. We've come so far, and the people yapping about how "everything is the worst" are reactionary. Yes there are problems, I don't want to downplay them. But largely, until very recently, things were getting better en masse and zoomed out enough in time that trend will likely continue if we don't blow it all up or do something stupid like decide that science is too scary to do. What I mostly see in these threads is "Capitalist Realism" - people can't even imagine things turning out some way other than "capital controls everything forever."
  - throwaway-11-1 3mo ago
    Your response is not addressing my claims, homelessness is increasing, life expectancy is lagging poorer countries and there are still food security issues not being addressed in the richest country in history. I’m discussing material outcomes and you want to focus on social progress….which is fine I guess? Anyway I have receipts https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-life-expectancy-compare-countries/#Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth,%20in%20years,%201980-2024 https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-lif... https://www.unc.edu/discover/u-s-life-expectancy-drop-caused-by-more-than-pandemic/ https://www.unc.edu/discover/u-s-life-expectancy-drop-caused... https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us/key-statistics-graphics https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo... https://www.security.org/resources/homeless-statistics/ https://www.security.org/resources/homeless-statistics/
    - ben_w 3mo ago
      Those are all US stats. US got problems. World's much bigger than the US, and is getting better: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?time=1770..2023&country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?time=1770... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/prevalence-of-undernourishment?country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/prevalence-of-undernouris... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-population-living-in-extreme-poverty-by-world-region https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-population-living-i...
      - throwaway-11-1 3mo ago
        Yeah that’s totally fair and really good to see. It’s maybe the one perspective that gives me some hope
        omicronxt 3mo ago
        Our world in data is neoliberal think tank supported by billionares. They got bad reputation of misrepresenting data to favor capitalism as inherently progressive.
roughly 3mo ago
None of the problems with building a utopia are technological, all of the problems are social and political. What the people arguing with you are telling you is that if you ignore the social and political problems, you're going to continue to create exactly the same kinds of problems that have been caused by every other attempt to solve social and political problems with technology. When you can figure out why people in the richest country on earth lack access to health care and food, neither of which are currently limited by actual abundance or availability, we can start talking about whatever other material things you think we need to live in paradise.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago
  > None of the problems with building a utopia are technological Of course they are. Pre-Green revolution humanity probably couldn’t make a utopia. Currently, I’d argue we need way more energy to make utopia-like conditions available to all. Technology isn’t sufficient. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s unnecessary, unless one’s utopia permits dying horribly of infection due to minor cuts and abrasions.
  - roughly 3mo ago
    > Pre-Green revolution humanity probably couldn’t make a utopia. Post-Green revolution humanity hasn’t pulled it off either.
    - piloto_ciego 3mo ago
      It's a lot better than it was for the average human on earth than it was a couple centuries ago. Utopia can't happen overnight.
      - expedition32 3mo ago
        Infamously the 19th century saw declining living conditions in my country despite the technological and scientific progress. It is socialism that gets us to utopia not the technology.