5 ms·

Glad to hear this is a universal big tech experience. The promo process is entirely antithetical to shipping good products

citizenpaul 3mo ago
What do you mean? Youtube is unquestionably one of the most successful projects ever launched? Seems like the process works astoundingly well.
- OtomotO 3mo ago
  Good != Successful. I assume that's why they wrote good and not successful. It's an average software product with incredible scaling behind it and a lot of elbow grease to keep it chumming along, but it's not great software by the definition of "bugs actually get dealt with"
  - jascha_eng 3mo ago
    It's great software in the sense that it makes a shit ton of money though. In the end software that doesn't get used and doesn't make any money but has no bugs is not valuable either. Not saying that this is the trade off you have to make but if you have a working mode in place that achieves usage and money somewhat consistently i can understand being hesitant about changing it to optimize for less bugs instead.
    - estaroc 3mo ago
      The only people for whom it makes sense to define "great" as "makes money" are the people who produce and sell said product. Similarly, most people don't put much stock in the salesmen of a product describing their own product as great. Stop debasing all of quality to profitability.
    - OtomotO 3mo ago
      That's just two different scales. Weapons are a great product for weapon dealers and manufacturers as well, just not so much for the people killed by them (or their families, or survivors) So sure, if making a shitload of money is the metric, YouTube is a great product. That wasn't the point of the person you answered to though.
    - ori_b 3mo ago
      Surely the Therac would have made more money if they had covered up the deaths instead of fixing the bugs and owning up to them. Why do you think they would compromise how good their software is merely to save lives?
- strictnein 3mo ago
  Youtube wasn't launched by Google, it was purchased.
  - UnlockedSecrets 3mo ago
    Youtube launched 1 year and 8 months before being acquired by google.... It's largely semantics to say that what Youtube is today, isn't a direct result of Google's ownership for nearly 20 years now....
    - strictnein 3mo ago
      Huh? It's not semantics to point out that a project wasn't launched by Google, when the point was about a successful project launch from Google.
    - ismailmaj 3mo ago
      From talking to someone that worked at YouTube for 15 years, they still had a lot of core Python code in 2016 that was legacy from the OG company/team and that code needed to be transitioned to follow the Google way of doing things in C++/Go. I don't think it was distinct enough from the Google culture like Android was at the start of the acquisition but it seems they had leeway to do their own thing.
    - grg0 3mo ago
      Google had Google Video and couldn't hold up, that's why they bought Youtube.
    - sdevonoes 3mo ago
      What YT is now: - ads every now and then - addictive shorts no one needs - suggested videos nobody asked for - geo ban of videos
      - dizhn 3mo ago
        No concept of language in a user facing way. No filter by language no search by language. On the contrary searches are translated before running and return all languages, videos are dubbed even when you speak the original language, same but with titles being translated etc. Search being shit is kind of on par with being a Google product though. I wonder if they had any language preferences before Google bought them. I don't remember that far back.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- mid-kid 3mo ago
  Youtube survives on google's massive repertoire of products being vastly more profitable, not because it's the best of its kind.
  - thx67 3mo ago
    And free bandwdith. Free bandwidth is nice.
    - BetterThanSober 3mo ago
      Google definitely doesn't have free egress
      - thx67 3mo ago
        Google owns the backbone. They definitely have free egress.
        BetterThanSober 3mo ago
        (1) There is no single entity called "the backbone." (2) Yes, they do direct peering with ISPs whenever possible, but maintaining on-premise cache AND the "backbone" is not a trivial matter, nor free They're paying a marginal cost compared to us plebs, yeah, but definitely not "free", especially when YT is allegedly responsible for 1/6th of global internet traffic
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
- ghurtado 3mo ago
  And you honestly believe the main factor in YouTube success was the quality of the code? That's a thought that doesn't even deserve further comment.
- dooglius 3mo ago
  Did the promo process exist at YouTube's creation?
tiahura 3mo ago
Sweep it under the rug is not limited to any paticular industry.
Aunche 3mo ago
I don't think it's the promo process itself. If the bug was something that actually affects Google's bottom line, I guarantee that Google would find a way such that the engineer would be incentivized to fix it.
gguncth 3mo ago
Shipping great products is about the details that almost nobody will notice A good promo process needs to notice the invisible Apple did it for decades
- tgma 3mo ago
  Haha, almost everything at Apple that is not seen by the user is full of crap (and increasingly you see user facing bugs and schedule slippage too). Possibly still somewhat true in hardware, but in software, they have far worse engineering practices than Google: remember "goto fail"? Back in Snow Leopard days you could instantly crash the kernel with a fuzzer. In fact I managed to do that accidentally by hand. NT kernel had much more systemic hardening than XNU. Apple also treats employees capriciously and in non-standard ways. Your experience is almost entirely dependent on who your manager is. I have never heard any of big tech make so many false promises to employees. I have friends who negotiated for an immediate green card application upfront, but they later found out they were bait and switched, etc.
a34729t 3mo ago
It depends heavily on your manager and skip. My boss values operations and getting things done (including both doing things right from the beginning, and fixing things when we have to cut corners to launch quickly due to exogenous pressure), and that means people get promoted for being good engineers. Of course this falls apart for higher levels where it is entirely politics, but that is beyond my boss' influence.

citizenpaul 3mo ago

What do you mean? Youtube is unquestionably one of the most successful projects ever launched? Seems like the process works astoundingly well.

OtomotO 3mo ago
Good != Successful. I assume that's why they wrote good and not successful. It's an average software product with incredible scaling behind it and a lot of elbow grease to keep it chumming along, but it's not great software by the definition of "bugs actually get dealt with"
- jascha_eng 3mo ago
  It's great software in the sense that it makes a shit ton of money though. In the end software that doesn't get used and doesn't make any money but has no bugs is not valuable either. Not saying that this is the trade off you have to make but if you have a working mode in place that achieves usage and money somewhat consistently i can understand being hesitant about changing it to optimize for less bugs instead.
  - estaroc 3mo ago
    The only people for whom it makes sense to define "great" as "makes money" are the people who produce and sell said product. Similarly, most people don't put much stock in the salesmen of a product describing their own product as great. Stop debasing all of quality to profitability.
  - OtomotO 3mo ago
    That's just two different scales. Weapons are a great product for weapon dealers and manufacturers as well, just not so much for the people killed by them (or their families, or survivors) So sure, if making a shitload of money is the metric, YouTube is a great product. That wasn't the point of the person you answered to though.
  - ori_b 3mo ago
    Surely the Therac would have made more money if they had covered up the deaths instead of fixing the bugs and owning up to them. Why do you think they would compromise how good their software is merely to save lives?
strictnein 3mo ago
Youtube wasn't launched by Google, it was purchased.
- UnlockedSecrets 3mo ago
  Youtube launched 1 year and 8 months before being acquired by google.... It's largely semantics to say that what Youtube is today, isn't a direct result of Google's ownership for nearly 20 years now....
  - strictnein 3mo ago
    Huh? It's not semantics to point out that a project wasn't launched by Google, when the point was about a successful project launch from Google.
  - ismailmaj 3mo ago
    From talking to someone that worked at YouTube for 15 years, they still had a lot of core Python code in 2016 that was legacy from the OG company/team and that code needed to be transitioned to follow the Google way of doing things in C++/Go. I don't think it was distinct enough from the Google culture like Android was at the start of the acquisition but it seems they had leeway to do their own thing.
  - grg0 3mo ago
    Google had Google Video and couldn't hold up, that's why they bought Youtube.
  - sdevonoes 3mo ago
    What YT is now: - ads every now and then - addictive shorts no one needs - suggested videos nobody asked for - geo ban of videos
    - dizhn 3mo ago
      No concept of language in a user facing way. No filter by language no search by language. On the contrary searches are translated before running and return all languages, videos are dubbed even when you speak the original language, same but with titles being translated etc. Search being shit is kind of on par with being a Google product though. I wonder if they had any language preferences before Google bought them. I don't remember that far back.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
mid-kid 3mo ago
Youtube survives on google's massive repertoire of products being vastly more profitable, not because it's the best of its kind.
- thx67 3mo ago
  And free bandwdith. Free bandwidth is nice.
  - BetterThanSober 3mo ago
    Google definitely doesn't have free egress
    - thx67 3mo ago
      Google owns the backbone. They definitely have free egress.
      - BetterThanSober 3mo ago
        (1) There is no single entity called "the backbone." (2) Yes, they do direct peering with ISPs whenever possible, but maintaining on-premise cache AND the "backbone" is not a trivial matter, nor free They're paying a marginal cost compared to us plebs, yeah, but definitely not "free", especially when YT is allegedly responsible for 1/6th of global internet traffic
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
ghurtado 3mo ago
And you honestly believe the main factor in YouTube success was the quality of the code? That's a thought that doesn't even deserve further comment.
dooglius 3mo ago
Did the promo process exist at YouTube's creation?

tiahura 3mo ago

Sweep it under the rug is not limited to any paticular industry.

Aunche 3mo ago

I don't think it's the promo process itself. If the bug was something that actually affects Google's bottom line, I guarantee that Google would find a way such that the engineer would be incentivized to fix it.

gguncth 3mo ago

Shipping great products is about the details that almost nobody will notice A good promo process needs to notice the invisible Apple did it for decades

tgma 3mo ago
Haha, almost everything at Apple that is not seen by the user is full of crap (and increasingly you see user facing bugs and schedule slippage too). Possibly still somewhat true in hardware, but in software, they have far worse engineering practices than Google: remember "goto fail"? Back in Snow Leopard days you could instantly crash the kernel with a fuzzer. In fact I managed to do that accidentally by hand. NT kernel had much more systemic hardening than XNU. Apple also treats employees capriciously and in non-standard ways. Your experience is almost entirely dependent on who your manager is. I have never heard any of big tech make so many false promises to employees. I have friends who negotiated for an immediate green card application upfront, but they later found out they were bait and switched, etc.

a34729t 3mo ago

It depends heavily on your manager and skip. My boss values operations and getting things done (including both doing things right from the beginning, and fixing things when we have to cut corners to launch quickly due to exogenous pressure), and that means people get promoted for being good engineers. Of course this falls apart for higher levels where it is entirely politics, but that is beyond my boss' influence.