4 ms·

> The government is not just any old company or investor, the government has guns and can compel action in a way that others cannot. As such it is very powerful

by mpyne 14y ago

> The government is not just any old company or investor, the government has guns and can compel action in a way that others cannot. As such it is very powerful to have as a investor and very dangerous to have as a competitor. Too dangerous. I get what you're saying but I really wish people would quit bandying about the "government has guns" line. I'm one of the zillions working in the USG and I can tell you that the left hand doesn't hardly even know what the left finger is doing most of the time, let alone the right hand (and this is often by design, to avoid exactly what you're talking about). If you want to discuss hypotheticals of gov't gone astray then that's fine but then we could also discuss those hypothetical meteors that might hit your corporate HQ (hope you've been doing your disaster recovery planning). Or we could quit acting like starting a business in the U.S. is really just like starting a business in a country run by a junta, or that investing in civilian-run businesses that further a societal and national goal is just like establishing a command economy.

temphn 14y ago
Or we could quit acting like starting a business in the U.S. is really just like starting a business in a country run by a junta The US is obviously a much better place to start a business than a Latin American dictatorship. However, the question is whether it's a more stable environment than, say, Singapore. Here are a few links that I know weigh heavily on the minds of people who think like me; you might believe we should weigh them less, but these are governmental decisions that arguably do increase the unpredictability of doing business in the US. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/chryslers-holdout-lenders-object-to-sale/ http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/chryslers-holdout-len... In a long document filed Sunday evening, Chrysler asked a judge to approve a sale of most of its assets and some of its liabilities for $2 billion to an entity formed by Fiat, the United Auto Workers’ retirement trust and the United States and Canadian governments. But in Monday’s objection, a group of debt holders advised by the law firm White & Case criticized the proposal as too rushed, arguing that it was unreasonable to rule on the merits of the sale on “15 hours’ notice.” Moreover, they said the sale was really a reorganization plan in disguise — one that flouts the basic rules about which creditors get priority under the federal bankruptcy code. The proposed sale attempts to put social goals ahead of bankruptcy law, and should not be approved, the objection said. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline#Keystone_XL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline#Keystone_XL The Keystone XL extension was proposed in 2008.[6] The application was filed in September 2008 and the National Energy Board of Canada started hearings in September 2009. [16] On March 11, 2010 the Canadian National Energy Board approved the project.[2][3][17] The South Dakota Public Utilities Commission granted a permit on February 19, 2010. [18] On July 21, 2010, the Environmental Protection Agency said the draft environmental impact study for Keystone XL was inadequate and should be revised... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/14/science/earth/14coal.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/14/science/earth/14coal.html?... The Environmental Protection Agency revoked the permit for one of the nation’s largest mountaintop-removal coal mining projects on Thursday, saying the mine would have done unacceptable damage to rivers, wildlife and communities in West Virginia. It was the first time the agency had rescinded a valid clean water permit for a coal mine... Environmentalists welcomed Thursday’s decision. But the mining company and politicians in West Virginia expressed fury, saying the action was an unprecedented federal intrusion, an economic catastrophe for the state and a dangerous precedent for all regulated industries. http://mobihealthnews.com/6932/interview-the-iphone-medical-app-denied-510k/ http://mobihealthnews.com/6932/interview-the-iphone-medical-... Did MIMvista ever make it into the AppStore? Mobile MIM was available at the launch of the App Store. The app was free and included sample patients for people to try it out for themselves. Why did MIMvista remove the app from the store? (or was it forced out?) In August of 2008, we submitted our first 510(k). ... To be honest, this dramatically new direction for our company, and the speed at which it occurred, left us ill- prepared for the scope of the regulatory process that would unfold. Within only a few weeks of submitting, we were contacted by the FDA and told that our app could not be on the app store (despite the fact that it was both free and labeled as “not intended for diagnostic use”) because it served as marketing for a device that was not cleared for marketing. We promptly removed it. Then, over the next few months, we discovered that our proposed device raised more questions than we had anticipated. In order to make their determination, the FDA wanted more information than we had provided. The process stalled out as we reviewed what we would have to do next. This 510(k) was declared not substantially equivalent (NSE) because of insufficient data. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/story/2012-07-25/buckyballs-ban/56481316/1 http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/story... The Consumer Product Safety Commission on Wednesday sued the maker of the popular magnetic desk toy Buckyballs to stop the sale of the product because of the risks posed to children... Responding to a request for comment, the company sent a press release headlined, "CPSC: Thank you for trying to drive a $50 million New York-based consumer product company out of business." Buckyballs and Buckycubes are Maxfield & Oberton's sole products; 2.5 million sets have been sold since 2009. One can go on in this vein. These stories did happen. You may or may not agree that they are happening at an increasing rate; you may or may not agree that this increase is statistically significant. But the perception is indeed that the US is becoming a much more unpredictable place to do business.
jpxxx 14y ago
Whether the USG is a collection of well minded do-gooders, an inept bureaucracy that can't tell one hand from another, a literal collection of antichrists, or absolutely none of the above: the USG has guns.
- mpyne 14y ago
  So do the militiamen in Montana, so what exactly is your point? The bobbies patrolling the streets in the U.K. are unarmed but people still seem to respect the rule of law over there, companies can still be seized, etc. In fact there are probably even a few Western democracies without so much as a military that still could pass laws to nationalize a business. "Guns" are the least of your problems with government from a day-to-day point of view.
  - jessaustin 14y ago
    The "gun" narrative, in addition to being literally true, also has the rhetorical advantage of emotionally short-circuiting many people of a particular ideological bent. While you fume about being explicitly associated with the violent force that implicitly enables your everyday actions, you're unable to reply in a fashion that will convince the majority of people who don't have irrational ideas about guns. (I don't necessarily mean "you" literally, but surely we've seen enough guns-r-bad silliness online to know that it exists.)
  - temphn 14y ago
    From our point of view guns are the core of the problem. An individual can decide not to buy something if they don't like it. Apple can tell Google to piss off when they don't like the terms of a deal. But you can't tell the government to go and pound sand if you don't like the opinion of a regulator. They have the power to send in the SWAT teams and not vice versa. Try fighting USG on anything of substance and police will quickly appear, and with them guns, and then your choice is to die, to be imprisoned, or to submit. The Buckyballs owner just had to submit. CPSC put him out of business: http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/02/magnetic-buckyballs-toys-discontinued http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/02/magnetic-buckyballs... This is one of the stories that made the papers. Most don't. FDA alone issued 10000+ 483s in 2011: http://blog.fdazilla.com/2011/09/fda-will-issue-10000-483s-in-2011-one-every-52-minutes/ http://blog.fdazilla.com/2011/09/fda-will-issue-10000-483s-i... mpyne, because you are within the federal government you don't see its bad side. Most of your work is just office work. Your agency is not about to be banned by another agency. The worst thing that can happen is that the budget is not substantially increased. Things are a sight more dangerous for non-government businesses in the US today, at least those which are in politically unfavored categories (like Keystone XL) rather than politically favored ones (like the green energy companies). While once in a while it so happens that political favor coincides with technological merit, as in the case of Tesla, most of the time innovation means pissing people off. Innovation and consensus are antonyms. Innovation is not democratic, committees don't make breakthroughs, and it'd be nice to not have to deal with a regulator waving a gun in one's face when your disruption disrupts their assumptions.

by mpyne 14y ago

temphn 14y ago

Or we could quit acting like starting a business in the U.S. is really just like starting a business in a country run by a junta The US is obviously a much better place to start a business than a Latin American dictatorship. However, the question is whether it's a more stable environment than, say, Singapore. Here are a few links that I know weigh heavily on the minds of people who think like me; you might believe we should weigh them less, but these are governmental decisions that arguably do increase the unpredictability of doing business in the US. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/chryslers-holdout-lenders-object-to-sale/ http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/chryslers-holdout-len... In a long document filed Sunday evening, Chrysler asked a judge to approve a sale of most of its assets and some of its liabilities for $2 billion to an entity formed by Fiat, the United Auto Workers’ retirement trust and the United States and Canadian governments. But in Monday’s objection, a group of debt holders advised by the law firm White & Case criticized the proposal as too rushed, arguing that it was unreasonable to rule on the merits of the sale on “15 hours’ notice.” Moreover, they said the sale was really a reorganization plan in disguise — one that flouts the basic rules about which creditors get priority under the federal bankruptcy code. The proposed sale attempts to put social goals ahead of bankruptcy law, and should not be approved, the objection said. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline#Keystone_XL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline#Keystone_XL The Keystone XL extension was proposed in 2008.[6] The application was filed in September 2008 and the National Energy Board of Canada started hearings in September 2009. [16] On March 11, 2010 the Canadian National Energy Board approved the project.[2][3][17] The South Dakota Public Utilities Commission granted a permit on February 19, 2010. [18] On July 21, 2010, the Environmental Protection Agency said the draft environmental impact study for Keystone XL was inadequate and should be revised... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/14/science/earth/14coal.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/14/science/earth/14coal.html?... The Environmental Protection Agency revoked the permit for one of the nation’s largest mountaintop-removal coal mining projects on Thursday, saying the mine would have done unacceptable damage to rivers, wildlife and communities in West Virginia. It was the first time the agency had rescinded a valid clean water permit for a coal mine... Environmentalists welcomed Thursday’s decision. But the mining company and politicians in West Virginia expressed fury, saying the action was an unprecedented federal intrusion, an economic catastrophe for the state and a dangerous precedent for all regulated industries. http://mobihealthnews.com/6932/interview-the-iphone-medical-app-denied-510k/ http://mobihealthnews.com/6932/interview-the-iphone-medical-... Did MIMvista ever make it into the AppStore? Mobile MIM was available at the launch of the App Store. The app was free and included sample patients for people to try it out for themselves. Why did MIMvista remove the app from the store? (or was it forced out?) In August of 2008, we submitted our first 510(k). ... To be honest, this dramatically new direction for our company, and the speed at which it occurred, left us ill- prepared for the scope of the regulatory process that would unfold. Within only a few weeks of submitting, we were contacted by the FDA and told that our app could not be on the app store (despite the fact that it was both free and labeled as “not intended for diagnostic use”) because it served as marketing for a device that was not cleared for marketing. We promptly removed it. Then, over the next few months, we discovered that our proposed device raised more questions than we had anticipated. In order to make their determination, the FDA wanted more information than we had provided. The process stalled out as we reviewed what we would have to do next. This 510(k) was declared not substantially equivalent (NSE) because of insufficient data. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/story/2012-07-25/buckyballs-ban/56481316/1 http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/story... The Consumer Product Safety Commission on Wednesday sued the maker of the popular magnetic desk toy Buckyballs to stop the sale of the product because of the risks posed to children... Responding to a request for comment, the company sent a press release headlined, "CPSC: Thank you for trying to drive a $50 million New York-based consumer product company out of business." Buckyballs and Buckycubes are Maxfield & Oberton's sole products; 2.5 million sets have been sold since 2009. One can go on in this vein. These stories did happen. You may or may not agree that they are happening at an increasing rate; you may or may not agree that this increase is statistically significant. But the perception is indeed that the US is becoming a much more unpredictable place to do business.

jpxxx 14y ago

Whether the USG is a collection of well minded do-gooders, an inept bureaucracy that can't tell one hand from another, a literal collection of antichrists, or absolutely none of the above: the USG has guns.

mpyne 14y ago
So do the militiamen in Montana, so what exactly is your point? The bobbies patrolling the streets in the U.K. are unarmed but people still seem to respect the rule of law over there, companies can still be seized, etc. In fact there are probably even a few Western democracies without so much as a military that still could pass laws to nationalize a business. "Guns" are the least of your problems with government from a day-to-day point of view.
- jessaustin 14y ago
  The "gun" narrative, in addition to being literally true, also has the rhetorical advantage of emotionally short-circuiting many people of a particular ideological bent. While you fume about being explicitly associated with the violent force that implicitly enables your everyday actions, you're unable to reply in a fashion that will convince the majority of people who don't have irrational ideas about guns. (I don't necessarily mean "you" literally, but surely we've seen enough guns-r-bad silliness online to know that it exists.)
- temphn 14y ago
  From our point of view guns are the core of the problem. An individual can decide not to buy something if they don't like it. Apple can tell Google to piss off when they don't like the terms of a deal. But you can't tell the government to go and pound sand if you don't like the opinion of a regulator. They have the power to send in the SWAT teams and not vice versa. Try fighting USG on anything of substance and police will quickly appear, and with them guns, and then your choice is to die, to be imprisoned, or to submit. The Buckyballs owner just had to submit. CPSC put him out of business: http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/02/magnetic-buckyballs-toys-discontinued http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/02/magnetic-buckyballs... This is one of the stories that made the papers. Most don't. FDA alone issued 10000+ 483s in 2011: http://blog.fdazilla.com/2011/09/fda-will-issue-10000-483s-in-2011-one-every-52-minutes/ http://blog.fdazilla.com/2011/09/fda-will-issue-10000-483s-i... mpyne, because you are within the federal government you don't see its bad side. Most of your work is just office work. Your agency is not about to be banned by another agency. The worst thing that can happen is that the budget is not substantially increased. Things are a sight more dangerous for non-government businesses in the US today, at least those which are in politically unfavored categories (like Keystone XL) rather than politically favored ones (like the green energy companies). While once in a while it so happens that political favor coincides with technological merit, as in the case of Tesla, most of the time innovation means pissing people off. Innovation and consensus are antonyms. Innovation is not democratic, committees don't make breakthroughs, and it'd be nice to not have to deal with a regulator waving a gun in one's face when your disruption disrupts their assumptions.