3 ms·

Such radicalism never materializes from a vacuum. All extremes come as an iterative increment until a critical mass compels the middle over a ledge. Nothing ha

Such radicalism never materializes from a vacuum. All extremes come as an iterative increment until a critical mass compels the middle over a ledge. Nothing happens without mobilizing and catalyzing the middle. All “sides” know this.

krapp 3mo ago
Except the thesis is that the mainstream left (which would be the Democratic Party) is already just as extremist as MAGA (which has become the mainstream right.) When people resort to calling Joe Biden a communist, or even Barack Obama, because there's no one in power on the mainstream left to whom the label "far left" could reasonably apply, it's an obvious false equivalence. The "Nazis" are saying Nazi things and doing Nazi things while the "Communists" are at best European style Democratic Socialists but are framed as hardline Stalinists in order to make the "pendulum of extremism" narrative work. You're correct that the increasing radicalism on the left didn't materialize from a vacuum, it's a result of the populist left being disenfranchised by how not leftist the Democrats are in practice, it isn't a result of iterative radicalism within the Democratic party itself and it wouldn't exist if the Democrats were anywhere near as extreme as the Republicans make them out to be. If you're looking at both parties and seeing two equal and opposing ideological forces then I think you're deluding yourself. Maybe in a few years that changes if the left can do to the Democrats what MAGA did to Republicans, but at the moment it doesn't reflect reality. What we really have is a far right party and a center right party.
- enragebait 3mo ago
  Some of what you say is noise prattling around the echo chamber of minds and not reflecting true dispositions in reality. Anyone can “call” or “say” anything in this age of amplification. Sides will always make excessive generalizations of the other. Everyone sees the “other” side as a collective singular body of “them” and their own side as a collection of distinguishable individuals like “us.”
- matchbok3 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - enragebait 3mo ago
    I do adore a great many socialists. You will find many are actually altruistic intellectuals. However I like to say, if you are a true socialist and not a hypocrite, then spend some time as a civil servant or in some capacity which is responsible for the well being of other people you are not related to. And I can think of two for instance in which socialist values work: cooperatives and military service!
    - cindyllm 3mo ago
      [dead]
  - krapp 3mo ago
    >Even then, 60% of dems think the party is already too far left. So I'm not sure exactly why you are rooting for some socialist party. Nobody wants it. If people wanted it, the party would exist. The party does exist. We're in a thread discussing said party. And I guess you didn't read the part of my comment where I pointed out that the reason that party exists is that people do want the Democrats to move further left than they're willing to. Also socialism seems to work just fine throughout the entire Western world, for the definition of "socialism" being used here.
    - andsoitis 3mo ago
      > people do want the Democrats to move further left than they're willing to. On which issues would you say the majority of democratic voters want the party to move further left?
      - krapp 3mo ago
        healthcare, policing, student loans, housing, the military. Name a leftist position and I think you'll find a lot of dissatisfaction with the party's position on it.
- andsoitis 3mo ago
  > The "Nazis" are saying Nazi things and doing Nazi things Are you arguing that the GOP and the replican voters are nazis?
  - krapp 3mo ago
    What else would you call people who believe in Nazi conspiracy theories, court Nazi influencers, display Nazi symbols, parrot Nazi propaganda and spread Nazi memes? At some point you have to face facts about the nature of MAGA and what American conservatism is actually turning into.
    - fragmede 3mo ago
      The problem is that people tune out when you call them Nazis. If you want them to vote a different way, you've got to engay with them and have a talk with them. Yelling Nazi online and mic dropping isn't going to get kids out of ICE concentration camps. Neither is this comment, unfortunately.
      - krapp 3mo ago
        The problem is you're blaming me for the actions of Nazis because pointing out that the Nazis are Nazis makes Nazis feel bad, rather than blaming the Nazis for being Nazis. What exactly do you think they have to say that I need to hear? The specific reason why I deserve to be put against the wall with rest of the degenerates? No thank you. Maybe you should blame them for putting kids in ICE concentration camps, and not me. I didn't do that, and I didn't vote for the people who did.
        deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
        fragmede 3mo ago
        I'm pointing out that hey, if you want people to vote your way, that calling someone a Nazi isn't going to convince them that you've got anything worth listening to.

krapp 3mo ago

Except the thesis is that the mainstream left (which would be the Democratic Party) is already just as extremist as MAGA (which has become the mainstream right.) When people resort to calling Joe Biden a communist, or even Barack Obama, because there's no one in power on the mainstream left to whom the label "far left" could reasonably apply, it's an obvious false equivalence. The "Nazis" are saying Nazi things and doing Nazi things while the "Communists" are at best European style Democratic Socialists but are framed as hardline Stalinists in order to make the "pendulum of extremism" narrative work. You're correct that the increasing radicalism on the left didn't materialize from a vacuum, it's a result of the populist left being disenfranchised by how not leftist the Democrats are in practice, it isn't a result of iterative radicalism within the Democratic party itself and it wouldn't exist if the Democrats were anywhere near as extreme as the Republicans make them out to be. If you're looking at both parties and seeing two equal and opposing ideological forces then I think you're deluding yourself. Maybe in a few years that changes if the left can do to the Democrats what MAGA did to Republicans, but at the moment it doesn't reflect reality. What we really have is a far right party and a center right party.

enragebait 3mo ago
Some of what you say is noise prattling around the echo chamber of minds and not reflecting true dispositions in reality. Anyone can “call” or “say” anything in this age of amplification. Sides will always make excessive generalizations of the other. Everyone sees the “other” side as a collective singular body of “them” and their own side as a collection of distinguishable individuals like “us.”
matchbok3 3mo ago
[flagged]
- enragebait 3mo ago
  I do adore a great many socialists. You will find many are actually altruistic intellectuals. However I like to say, if you are a true socialist and not a hypocrite, then spend some time as a civil servant or in some capacity which is responsible for the well being of other people you are not related to. And I can think of two for instance in which socialist values work: cooperatives and military service!
  - cindyllm 3mo ago
    [dead]
- krapp 3mo ago
  >Even then, 60% of dems think the party is already too far left. So I'm not sure exactly why you are rooting for some socialist party. Nobody wants it. If people wanted it, the party would exist. The party does exist. We're in a thread discussing said party. And I guess you didn't read the part of my comment where I pointed out that the reason that party exists is that people do want the Democrats to move further left than they're willing to. Also socialism seems to work just fine throughout the entire Western world, for the definition of "socialism" being used here.
  - andsoitis 3mo ago
    > people do want the Democrats to move further left than they're willing to. On which issues would you say the majority of democratic voters want the party to move further left?
    - krapp 3mo ago
      healthcare, policing, student loans, housing, the military. Name a leftist position and I think you'll find a lot of dissatisfaction with the party's position on it.
andsoitis 3mo ago
> The "Nazis" are saying Nazi things and doing Nazi things Are you arguing that the GOP and the replican voters are nazis?
- krapp 3mo ago
  What else would you call people who believe in Nazi conspiracy theories, court Nazi influencers, display Nazi symbols, parrot Nazi propaganda and spread Nazi memes? At some point you have to face facts about the nature of MAGA and what American conservatism is actually turning into.
  - fragmede 3mo ago
    The problem is that people tune out when you call them Nazis. If you want them to vote a different way, you've got to engay with them and have a talk with them. Yelling Nazi online and mic dropping isn't going to get kids out of ICE concentration camps. Neither is this comment, unfortunately.
    - krapp 3mo ago
      The problem is you're blaming me for the actions of Nazis because pointing out that the Nazis are Nazis makes Nazis feel bad, rather than blaming the Nazis for being Nazis. What exactly do you think they have to say that I need to hear? The specific reason why I deserve to be put against the wall with rest of the degenerates? No thank you. Maybe you should blame them for putting kids in ICE concentration camps, and not me. I didn't do that, and I didn't vote for the people who did.
      - deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
      - fragmede 3mo ago
        I'm pointing out that hey, if you want people to vote your way, that calling someone a Nazi isn't going to convince them that you've got anything worth listening to.