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She does seem like an actual leftist I'll give you that. But rhetoric doesn't count for much, what has she actually done that's radical? I can only judge from

by krapp 4mo ago

She does seem like an actual leftist I'll give you that. But rhetoric doesn't count for much, what has she actually done that's radical? I can only judge from her Wikipedia page but under political positions it says "Her platform has included universal healthcare, stronger tenant protections, funding programs for children instead of funding war, abolishing US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), banning large super PACs from elections, and prohibiting members of Congress from trading stocks." And she opposes Israel. I'm sorry but that doesn't read as extreme to me. Maybe abolishing ICE. What has AOC done that's "far left," or Mamdani? They can say what they want but none of these people actually threaten the status quo of American capitalism and imperialism, which (in my mind) anything worth calling "far left" must do to be valid. Bear in mind the standard on the other side is an attempted coup with a gallows on the Capitol lawn. BLM at least took over a police station and started a separatist autonomous zone. That's what "far left" looks like. Not "we need rent control." Actual far left movements like BLM and Occupy get co-opted and undermined before they even have a chance of affecting change. If any of these people even so much as glance towards the White House they'll be crucified by the Democrats, because the biggest problem with leftism in the US is that the only even ostensibly "leftist" party with any real power hates the left almost as much as the right does. I wish the DSA luck but I expect absolutely nothing of value from them. Wake me up when they're hanging billionaires from lampposts and then tell me about the "extremism" on both sides.

enragebait 4mo ago
Such radicalism never materializes from a vacuum. All extremes come as an iterative increment until a critical mass compels the middle over a ledge. Nothing happens without mobilizing and catalyzing the middle. All “sides” know this.
- krapp 4mo ago
  Except the thesis is that the mainstream left (which would be the Democratic Party) is already just as extremist as MAGA (which has become the mainstream right.) When people resort to calling Joe Biden a communist, or even Barack Obama, because there's no one in power on the mainstream left to whom the label "far left" could reasonably apply, it's an obvious false equivalence. The "Nazis" are saying Nazi things and doing Nazi things while the "Communists" are at best European style Democratic Socialists but are framed as hardline Stalinists in order to make the "pendulum of extremism" narrative work. You're correct that the increasing radicalism on the left didn't materialize from a vacuum, it's a result of the populist left being disenfranchised by how not leftist the Democrats are in practice, it isn't a result of iterative radicalism within the Democratic party itself and it wouldn't exist if the Democrats were anywhere near as extreme as the Republicans make them out to be. If you're looking at both parties and seeing two equal and opposing ideological forces then I think you're deluding yourself. Maybe in a few years that changes if the left can do to the Democrats what MAGA did to Republicans, but at the moment it doesn't reflect reality. What we really have is a far right party and a center right party.
  - enragebait 4mo ago
    Some of what you say is noise prattling around the echo chamber of minds and not reflecting true dispositions in reality. Anyone can “call” or “say” anything in this age of amplification. Sides will always make excessive generalizations of the other. Everyone sees the “other” side as a collective singular body of “them” and their own side as a collection of distinguishable individuals like “us.”
  - matchbok3 4mo ago
    [flagged]
    - enragebait 4mo ago
      I do adore a great many socialists. You will find many are actually altruistic intellectuals. However I like to say, if you are a true socialist and not a hypocrite, then spend some time as a civil servant or in some capacity which is responsible for the well being of other people you are not related to. And I can think of two for instance in which socialist values work: cooperatives and military service!
      - cindyllm 4mo ago
        [dead]
    - krapp 4mo ago
      >Even then, 60% of dems think the party is already too far left. So I'm not sure exactly why you are rooting for some socialist party. Nobody wants it. If people wanted it, the party would exist. The party does exist. We're in a thread discussing said party. And I guess you didn't read the part of my comment where I pointed out that the reason that party exists is that people do want the Democrats to move further left than they're willing to. Also socialism seems to work just fine throughout the entire Western world, for the definition of "socialism" being used here.
      - andsoitis 4mo ago
matchbok3 4mo ago
[flagged]
- krapp 4mo ago
  Darializa Avila Chevalier wasn't running in 2024, Kamala Harris was, and she was trying as hard as possible to appeal to the right to the point of alienating her base entirely. I don't think "crazy rhetoric" is the reason Trump won so much as the fact that a significant number of Americans simply cannot take a woman, much less a black woman, seriously in a position of power. Because I'll point it out again, and doubtless be ignored again - there is nothing approaching "socialism" anywhere near the mainstream of the Democratic Party. The Democrats supported Israel. The Democrats don't support abolishing prisons. The Democrats, despite propaganda to the contrary, have never wanted to "abolish" the border. Biden and Obama were both aggressive in their border policies. Hell, Biden tried to fund part of Trump's border wall in 2023. The only people who are turned off by the Democrats because they're "too socialist" are people who were never going to vote for them to begin with. Everyone else is pissed that they aren't nearly leftist enough.
  - matchbok3 4mo ago
    [flagged]
    - krapp 4mo ago
      >At some point you DSA types need to give up on the identity politics nonsense. And you contradict yourself. Was it because she was too right or because she wasn't a white man? Is it both? Then perhaps you all need to understand how to win elections and stop whining. Winning means convincing others to vote for your side. 51 > 49, did you know? Literally 0 political movements win by shaming the electorate, believe it or not. Do better. You're gloating like the Democrats didn't win the popular vote entirely in 2016, didn't win the actual vote in 2020, and the margins weren't razor thin in 2024. Like 51 to 49 is a blowout. Get your head checked, buddy. And no electorate has been shamed harder that Trump voters at this point. Really, it's like talking to a Markov chain with you people sometimes. You need to look up the definition of the word "contradiction." Kamala being too far right and being too black and female isn't a contradiction. And I assume your suggestion for winning elections is, unsurprisingly, be white, be a man and be a right-winger. I'll put that suggestion in the big pile of suggestions that the left only needs to abandon its principles entirely to get anywhere, which you and others like you have so helpfully offered. >If you think Biden was tough on the border in the first 3 years, I have a bridge to sell you. It was abundantly clear to anyone that they were paralyzed by the far-left faction who wanted them to do nothing. Again, you're just spouting right-wing propaganda here. It's wild that I'm in this thread with someone named "enragebait" and you're the one showing their ass. > I can't explain more complicated topics to you. And there's the personal attack, right on schedule. >Again, there are many people (myself included) who reject this socialism nonsense. Given your espoused opinions, you were never going to vote for a Democrat to begin with, so yours is not a vote that was cost. So your opinion isn't really relevant, and can be written off without consideration. I'm done. Good night.

by krapp 4mo ago

enragebait 4mo ago

Such radicalism never materializes from a vacuum. All extremes come as an iterative increment until a critical mass compels the middle over a ledge. Nothing happens without mobilizing and catalyzing the middle. All “sides” know this.

krapp 4mo ago
Except the thesis is that the mainstream left (which would be the Democratic Party) is already just as extremist as MAGA (which has become the mainstream right.) When people resort to calling Joe Biden a communist, or even Barack Obama, because there's no one in power on the mainstream left to whom the label "far left" could reasonably apply, it's an obvious false equivalence. The "Nazis" are saying Nazi things and doing Nazi things while the "Communists" are at best European style Democratic Socialists but are framed as hardline Stalinists in order to make the "pendulum of extremism" narrative work. You're correct that the increasing radicalism on the left didn't materialize from a vacuum, it's a result of the populist left being disenfranchised by how not leftist the Democrats are in practice, it isn't a result of iterative radicalism within the Democratic party itself and it wouldn't exist if the Democrats were anywhere near as extreme as the Republicans make them out to be. If you're looking at both parties and seeing two equal and opposing ideological forces then I think you're deluding yourself. Maybe in a few years that changes if the left can do to the Democrats what MAGA did to Republicans, but at the moment it doesn't reflect reality. What we really have is a far right party and a center right party.
- enragebait 4mo ago
  Some of what you say is noise prattling around the echo chamber of minds and not reflecting true dispositions in reality. Anyone can “call” or “say” anything in this age of amplification. Sides will always make excessive generalizations of the other. Everyone sees the “other” side as a collective singular body of “them” and their own side as a collection of distinguishable individuals like “us.”
- matchbok3 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - enragebait 4mo ago
    I do adore a great many socialists. You will find many are actually altruistic intellectuals. However I like to say, if you are a true socialist and not a hypocrite, then spend some time as a civil servant or in some capacity which is responsible for the well being of other people you are not related to. And I can think of two for instance in which socialist values work: cooperatives and military service!
    - cindyllm 4mo ago
      [dead]
  - krapp 4mo ago
    >Even then, 60% of dems think the party is already too far left. So I'm not sure exactly why you are rooting for some socialist party. Nobody wants it. If people wanted it, the party would exist. The party does exist. We're in a thread discussing said party. And I guess you didn't read the part of my comment where I pointed out that the reason that party exists is that people do want the Democrats to move further left than they're willing to. Also socialism seems to work just fine throughout the entire Western world, for the definition of "socialism" being used here.
    - andsoitis 4mo ago

matchbok3 4mo ago

[flagged]

krapp 4mo ago
Darializa Avila Chevalier wasn't running in 2024, Kamala Harris was, and she was trying as hard as possible to appeal to the right to the point of alienating her base entirely. I don't think "crazy rhetoric" is the reason Trump won so much as the fact that a significant number of Americans simply cannot take a woman, much less a black woman, seriously in a position of power. Because I'll point it out again, and doubtless be ignored again - there is nothing approaching "socialism" anywhere near the mainstream of the Democratic Party. The Democrats supported Israel. The Democrats don't support abolishing prisons. The Democrats, despite propaganda to the contrary, have never wanted to "abolish" the border. Biden and Obama were both aggressive in their border policies. Hell, Biden tried to fund part of Trump's border wall in 2023. The only people who are turned off by the Democrats because they're "too socialist" are people who were never going to vote for them to begin with. Everyone else is pissed that they aren't nearly leftist enough.
- matchbok3 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - krapp 4mo ago
    >At some point you DSA types need to give up on the identity politics nonsense. And you contradict yourself. Was it because she was too right or because she wasn't a white man? Is it both? Then perhaps you all need to understand how to win elections and stop whining. Winning means convincing others to vote for your side. 51 > 49, did you know? Literally 0 political movements win by shaming the electorate, believe it or not. Do better. You're gloating like the Democrats didn't win the popular vote entirely in 2016, didn't win the actual vote in 2020, and the margins weren't razor thin in 2024. Like 51 to 49 is a blowout. Get your head checked, buddy. And no electorate has been shamed harder that Trump voters at this point. Really, it's like talking to a Markov chain with you people sometimes. You need to look up the definition of the word "contradiction." Kamala being too far right and being too black and female isn't a contradiction. And I assume your suggestion for winning elections is, unsurprisingly, be white, be a man and be a right-winger. I'll put that suggestion in the big pile of suggestions that the left only needs to abandon its principles entirely to get anywhere, which you and others like you have so helpfully offered. >If you think Biden was tough on the border in the first 3 years, I have a bridge to sell you. It was abundantly clear to anyone that they were paralyzed by the far-left faction who wanted them to do nothing. Again, you're just spouting right-wing propaganda here. It's wild that I'm in this thread with someone named "enragebait" and you're the one showing their ass. > I can't explain more complicated topics to you. And there's the personal attack, right on schedule. >Again, there are many people (myself included) who reject this socialism nonsense. Given your espoused opinions, you were never going to vote for a Democrat to begin with, so yours is not a vote that was cost. So your opinion isn't really relevant, and can be written off without consideration. I'm done. Good night.