5 ms·

> If you are familiar with Odin, one of the most popular "C competitor" languages, this might sound a little bit insane to say out loud Its hard to believe som

by bawolff 4mo ago

> If you are familiar with Odin, one of the most popular "C competitor" languages, this might sound a little bit insane to say out loud Its hard to believe someone actually said this with a straight face. I tend to lean more inclusionist, but there is no world where odin is one of the most popular c competitor languages.

dismalaf 4mo ago
Zig is more popular. Name a second modern "C competitor" language that's more popular?
- calvinmorrison 4mo ago
  golang, rust, c++... etc?
  - dismalaf 4mo ago
    The whole "C competitor" category is about minimalism so no one puts Rust or C++ in that category. Also Golang has a GC so most wouldn't even call it a systems language at all...
    - bawolff 4mo ago
      Everyone considers rust a c competitor. Its literally replacing c in the linux kernel.
      - dismalaf 4mo ago
        NetBSD puts Lua in kernel space, is it a C competitor? Rust is an obvious competitor to C++, both are similarly featured. When people talk about "modern C competitors" they're almost always talking about more minimalist languages like Zig, Odin, C3, Jai, Hare, etc...
      - uecker 4mo ago
        I wonder whether the "replacing c in the linux kernel" is not more wishful thinking by Rust enthusiasts. As of know it has less than 1% and less than bash.
        happosai 3mo ago
        Linux kernel project stuck at C89 and refused move to c++ or even a C standard upgrade for decades. Move to C11 (a 15 year old standard) was done just a few years ago. The fact that rust has been even accepted into the kernel is a resounding endorsement.
        tialaramex 3mo ago
        The C ISO document only ships about once or twice per decade, so being a "15 year old standard" means there are in fact only two newer standards C17 and C23. C17 is largely bugfixes. An "upgrade" to C17 probably wouldn't even change most of the whole files in Linux, let alone most of the lines of code, it's just not relevant. C23 is a larger change but it's also very young, much younger for example than the Rust for Linux project.
        uecker 3mo ago
        It was a resounding endorsement in 2020, but the proof is in the pudding. So far I am not impressed. It is also not something I think is terribly important. Even if they managed to improve memory safety in the kernel using Rust (but I assume improvements in C tooling will have a much bigger impact), the reality is that for the overall Linux community (but maybe not Google and co.) others things would be far more important (such as a proper responsible disclosure process, the recent failures were pretty bad).
        raphlinus 3mo ago
        Greg Kroah-Hartman has given a talk entitled "Untrusted data in Linux — How Rust is going to save us"[1] which I think is fairly optimistic about the idea that Rust will have an increasingly large role in the kernel. The total number of lines of code is small today but that will change. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzmj7K0FNRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzmj7K0FNRY
    - calvinmorrison 4mo ago
      ok maybe you are zoomed to far in.
forrestthewoods 4mo ago
> one of Seems reasonably accurate? Odin is not particularly popular. Zig is much much more popular. As-is Go, although that’s not a straight C competitor. But other than that? Odin is a real language being used by real professionals to ship real software products for money. That alone makes it a rare and notable programming language!
Imustaskforhelp 3mo ago
can only speak from my personal experience, I have made a scratchpad app within Odin and it was the first language that I picked for because I wanted C-esque speed and gui libraries being built in and I even used LLM's to write the whole thing to see LLM's capabilities. After a lot back and forth though, it was able to make it. I might link it but my point is that calling Odin niche might be same as calling every C alternative niche including Nim,D etc. You might be surprised by Vala as well! I wanted to test Odin language and I think that its a decent language. My hiccups were in writing the glue code for taking file dialogs and another being on how to have more flexibility but it was able to connect with objC as well, but the fact that I was able to make it still impresses me to this day and I still use this tool. And after thinking of all programming languages, I ended up deciding Odin because of the things that its good at and I just wanted things to work with more simpler choices. I just wanted to give a personal anecdote and I think that Odin could be considered a valid C competitor especially for GUI projects. I can't talk about the popularity aspect of it that much though as what feels popular to me depends on which communities I am part of and from my part using Odin and even joining their discord, it had already felt like a popular language to me (personally) at least
- bawolff 3mo ago
  I don't think anyone doubts that odin is a real programming language that you can make something in. The part that is doubtful is that it enjoys any level of popularity.
  - Imustaskforhelp 3mo ago
    Popularity is a bit subjective though as popularity also determines on all the projects built in that said language. Zig got a lot more popular because of the projects that have/had been built on it (Tigerbeetle/Bun) which signaled production-esque use of Zig. I do understand what you are saying though and I don't think that I have a meaningful thing to add in that and Odin is relatively popular within some circles but the question seems to be if its popular (enough*)

by bawolff 4mo ago

dismalaf 4mo ago

Zig is more popular. Name a second modern "C competitor" language that's more popular?

calvinmorrison 4mo ago
golang, rust, c++... etc?
- dismalaf 4mo ago
  The whole "C competitor" category is about minimalism so no one puts Rust or C++ in that category. Also Golang has a GC so most wouldn't even call it a systems language at all...
  - bawolff 4mo ago
    Everyone considers rust a c competitor. Its literally replacing c in the linux kernel.
    - dismalaf 4mo ago
      NetBSD puts Lua in kernel space, is it a C competitor? Rust is an obvious competitor to C++, both are similarly featured. When people talk about "modern C competitors" they're almost always talking about more minimalist languages like Zig, Odin, C3, Jai, Hare, etc...
    - uecker 4mo ago
      I wonder whether the "replacing c in the linux kernel" is not more wishful thinking by Rust enthusiasts. As of know it has less than 1% and less than bash.
      - happosai 3mo ago
        Linux kernel project stuck at C89 and refused move to c++ or even a C standard upgrade for decades. Move to C11 (a 15 year old standard) was done just a few years ago. The fact that rust has been even accepted into the kernel is a resounding endorsement.
        tialaramex 3mo ago
        The C ISO document only ships about once or twice per decade, so being a "15 year old standard" means there are in fact only two newer standards C17 and C23. C17 is largely bugfixes. An "upgrade" to C17 probably wouldn't even change most of the whole files in Linux, let alone most of the lines of code, it's just not relevant. C23 is a larger change but it's also very young, much younger for example than the Rust for Linux project.
        uecker 3mo ago
        It was a resounding endorsement in 2020, but the proof is in the pudding. So far I am not impressed. It is also not something I think is terribly important. Even if they managed to improve memory safety in the kernel using Rust (but I assume improvements in C tooling will have a much bigger impact), the reality is that for the overall Linux community (but maybe not Google and co.) others things would be far more important (such as a proper responsible disclosure process, the recent failures were pretty bad).
      - raphlinus 3mo ago
        Greg Kroah-Hartman has given a talk entitled "Untrusted data in Linux — How Rust is going to save us"[1] which I think is fairly optimistic about the idea that Rust will have an increasingly large role in the kernel. The total number of lines of code is small today but that will change. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzmj7K0FNRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzmj7K0FNRY
  - calvinmorrison 4mo ago
    ok maybe you are zoomed to far in.

forrestthewoods 4mo ago

> one of Seems reasonably accurate? Odin is not particularly popular. Zig is much much more popular. As-is Go, although that’s not a straight C competitor. But other than that? Odin is a real language being used by real professionals to ship real software products for money. That alone makes it a rare and notable programming language!

Imustaskforhelp 3mo ago

can only speak from my personal experience, I have made a scratchpad app within Odin and it was the first language that I picked for because I wanted C-esque speed and gui libraries being built in and I even used LLM's to write the whole thing to see LLM's capabilities. After a lot back and forth though, it was able to make it. I might link it but my point is that calling Odin niche might be same as calling every C alternative niche including Nim,D etc. You might be surprised by Vala as well! I wanted to test Odin language and I think that its a decent language. My hiccups were in writing the glue code for taking file dialogs and another being on how to have more flexibility but it was able to connect with objC as well, but the fact that I was able to make it still impresses me to this day and I still use this tool. And after thinking of all programming languages, I ended up deciding Odin because of the things that its good at and I just wanted things to work with more simpler choices. I just wanted to give a personal anecdote and I think that Odin could be considered a valid C competitor especially for GUI projects. I can't talk about the popularity aspect of it that much though as what feels popular to me depends on which communities I am part of and from my part using Odin and even joining their discord, it had already felt like a popular language to me (personally) at least

bawolff 3mo ago
I don't think anyone doubts that odin is a real programming language that you can make something in. The part that is doubtful is that it enjoys any level of popularity.
- Imustaskforhelp 3mo ago
  Popularity is a bit subjective though as popularity also determines on all the projects built in that said language. Zig got a lot more popular because of the projects that have/had been built on it (Tigerbeetle/Bun) which signaled production-esque use of Zig. I do understand what you are saying though and I don't think that I have a meaningful thing to add in that and Odin is relatively popular within some circles but the question seems to be if its popular (enough*)