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What Claude Code did is absolutely mindboggling tho, if Chinese harness did that probably POTUS would lose sleep.
by eunos 3mo ago
What Claude Code did is absolutely mindboggling tho, if Chinese harness did that probably POTUS would lose sleep.
- cognitiveinline 3mo agoExaggerate much? If you think POTUS would lose sleep about a date format timezone marker, I don't know what to tell you.
- yard2010 3mo agoWait what do you mean "if"?
- ironbound 3mo ago[flagged]
- youre-wrong3 3mo agoMaybe if they didn’t farm all the data from Claude to train their own trash models. Anthropic wouldn’t feel the need to do it.
- vrganj 3mo agoAnthropic stole the entire internet. Excuse my language, but they can fuck right off.
- breppp 3mo agoThe issue here is not whether Anthropic used Common Crawl, Alibaba also does that. The issue is that by distilling Claude, Alibaba reuses the IP anthropic used to train the model that's more akin to historical Chinese reverse engineering methods and disrespect of IP
- vrganj 3mo agoAnthropic clearly doesn't respect other people's IP, it's real rich that they now insist on theirs being worthy of protection. Fwiw, I think the concept of IP in general is counter to human progress.
- breppp 3mo agoIt's more complicated than that because Google has been legally displaying other people copyrighted material for years. In any case there's still a difference between publicly available copyrighted data and whether you can use it for model training, and the innovation around model training, RLHF, etc which you presumably have some interest as a country to allow companies to invest in with some legal protections (like the diff between patent law vs copyright law)
- platinumrad 3mo agoSo you're saying it's more important to safeguard slop outputs than the original work of human beings.
- breppp 3mo agoNo, I am saying that there is a good chance that for the good of humanity, society decides that for miracle AGI we collectively forfeit copyright in LLM training yet IP protections for model development is still kept. There are many cases in the early 2000s were copyright protections were relaxed for tech advancements
- Barbing 3mo agoDoes this match the kind of eminent domain case we might see where the country needs a highway more than it needs one particular citizen's house? When they bulldoze the house to pave the highway, they toss the homeowner a few bucks. If you take an author’s books do you owe him a share of OpenAI?
- close04 3mo ago
- messe 3mo ago> Alibaba reuses the IP anthropic used to train the model that's more akin to historical Chinese reverse engineering methods and disrespect of IP Why is this any worse than Anthropic's disrepect of IP? You've apparently drawn a distinction between the two here, but I'm failing to see what it actually is.
- breppp 3mo agoCopyright law and IP law is not the same although everyone seem to conflate the two. Search engines for example historically ignored copyright law by copying excerpts or serving other site images, it doesn't mean someone copying Google's code has some moral frepass
- messe 3mo ago> Copyright law and IP law is not the same although everyone seem to conflate the two. Copyright law is a subset of IP law. What IP is being infringed upon here? > Search engines for example historically ignored copyright law by copying excerpts or serving other site images Excerpts are often considered fair use, but it depends on country. > it doesn't mean someone copying Google's code has some moral frepass Nobody copied Anthropic's code. They used it's output to train another model. At most they violated some terms of service. Did they maybe abuse Anthropic's subsidised pricing? Sure. But that's what happens in a free market if you sell below cost.
- breppp 3mo ago> Excerpts are often considered fair use, but it depends on country. That had happened progressively, thumbnails for example were ruled as fair use later on, DMCA safe harbor was a huge gift for tech companies because otherwise it would curtail the ability to create platforms (relaxing copyright protections in exchange of innovation) > Nobody copied Anthropic's code. They used it's output to train another model. At most they violated some terms of service Distilling a model is a method that can push the entire market to low margins and prevent companies from making money off such research. It also copies the Anthropic special parts (RLHF and other specific methods) rather than the "copy of the entire web" part This is similar to what happened with Chinese reverse engineering of American manufacturing or PC clones killing IBM PCs. Is it in the interest of the USA, probably no, that's why I assume this will be backed by law eventually
- matheusmoreira 3mo ago> reuses the IP anthropic used to train the model > disrespect of IP Nobody other than Anthropic cares.
- blackoil 3mo ago'Issue' for who?
- snovv_crash 3mo agoAlibaba paid for that data though, right? They didn't hack Anthropic, they bought accounts and ran them normally. Also, you can't copyright AI outputs. So worst case they violated the ToS.
- wongarsu 3mo agoIf using Common Crawl or Anna's Archive in your training data is legal, then surely the same is true for using conversations with Claude. I don't see a reasonable framework where training AI on copyrighted data is ok if and only if that data is not generated by AI (granted, only meta got caught using Anna's Archive, but it seems safe to assume it's common practice. And even if it wasn't, the websites in Common Crawl are still covered by copyright)
- causal 3mo agoI wish people would stop using Anthropics incorrect use of the term distill. They don’t share logits so you can’t distill. You can generate training data, which doesn’t sound nearly so scary.
- wren6991 3mo agoWhy do you need logits to distill? Those are at least tokenizer-dependent, and different models use different tokenizers.
- causal 3mo agoDistillation is a specific named technique from a pretty famous paper "Distilling the Knowledge in a Neural Network," by Hinton and others. What makes it different from just training on any data is that you train the student model on "soft targets" that includes the full output distribution (logits) from the teacher model. Regular training uses one-hot targets and penalizes anything else; distillation will partly reward a student for getting in the distribution. This teaches the student to think like the teacher, not just imitate it. Generating training data is not distillation, not in the technical sense, and I dislike Anthropic undermining the nomenclature to set a narrative.
- wren6991 3mo agoThanks, I wasn't aware of that paper! I think the popular use of distill (one-hot rather than logits) is not due to Anthropic but due to the DeepSeek-R1 tech report: https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.12948 https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.12948
- InsideOutSanta 3mo agoWho is "they", and which Chinese models are trash?
- BoxOfRain 3mo agoBit rich given where Anthropic sourced the data to train Claude with. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
- usef- 3mo agoIt seemed pretty mild compared to what's collected by modern websites and apps, though? How many don't know your Timezone?
- dijit 3mo ago> How many don't know your Timezone? The timezone fetch was to alter program behaviour at runtime, not to send arbitrary timezones for tracking reasons. It was one way of detecting if it was a chinese person using the program and then behaving differently. Malware behaves this way. STUXNET for example was wired to do nothing except propagate unless the environment had the right conditions.
- usef- 3mo agoThe article on HN only said that they seemed to be collecting this to detect resellers. How else did the behavior change? Most services I know that are trying to block abuse do collect device info
- dijit 3mo agoregardless of anything else, whether what you said is true or not: blocking program execution based on the detected environment is a runtime behaviour change.
- usef- 3mo agoAgreed. And it also applies to the "I'm not a bot" checkbox on most websites. And hundreds of other things people use every day.
- stingraycharles 3mo agoYeah I also believe it’s a big nothing burger. There are far worse things these AI labs have done, detecting when Chinese labs are using Claude Code is not it.