4 ms·

we dont need new punishments, the system is just backwards. for things like shoplifting and vandalism it should be double or triple damages with no prison. corp

by tancop 4mo ago

we dont need new punishments, the system is just backwards. for things like shoplifting and vandalism it should be double or triple damages with no prison. corporate fraud, cartels, pollution, big time tax evasion has to come with 20+ year sentences and fines based on your income like a traffic violation in norway. flat fines just dont work when the criminal is rich. in general we should be a lot more strict on sexual crimes (sa, trafficking, child abuse but not voluntary prostitution) and white collar/economic ones including wage theft, but less strict on drugs and property. drug possession and non commercial digital piracy should be decriminalized. violent crimes are mostly in the right place, the big problem there is racist prosecutors and ineffective anti gang programs not the laws themselves but we need to remove death penalty/life without parole everywhere they still exist. the point is we need a rebalance not a whole new untested mechanic.

DaedalusII 4mo ago
[flagged]
- wetmore 4mo ago
  They get to pick the sentencing they are aiming for, and that can depend on race.
- benregenspan 4mo ago
  There is a whole area of research on this. Prosecutors have significant discretion around charging and (suggested) sentence, and this allows bias to creep in. I've heard people debate the quality of specific research on the size of the bias, but not the mere idea that bias is possible at all.
- LadyCailin 4mo ago
  They absolutely get to pick. They pick which cases they choose to prosecute, plea bargain, or dismiss, as well as what sentence they choose to ask for.
- kevin_thibedeau 4mo ago
  They have discretion to not prosecute. I was nearly killed and left with significant injuries. The police conspired to undercharge and the prosecutor DGAF.
- mcmcmc 4mo ago
  1) they can be selective with which arrests result in charges 2) prosecutors can tell police straight up what they will or won’t prosecute, which affects what crimes cops will investigate or make an arrest for
- toomuchtodo 4mo ago
  American Bar: Prosecutors confront ugly repercussions of bias - https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2023/02/prosecutors-confront-bias/ https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2... - February 3rd, 2023 > The pervasive problems with racism in our criminal justice system has been clear. Black Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at nearly five times the rate of white Americans. > The systemic racism in the system starts before the first contact and continues through charging decisions, plea deals, conviction, sentencing recommendations, incarceration, release and beyond.
  - cholmdomsky 4mo ago
    How do you respond when others use that information to instead assert "well of course they're incarcerated at a higher rate; they commit more, and worse crimes than -we- do!"
    - sejje 4mo ago
      I reassess and begin living in reality.
    - qwerpy 4mo ago
      I’ve given up trying to convince people about any of this. You will be accused of some -isms at best. So I just quietly use demographic information to pick where to live and where to send my kids to school. And try to be sympathetic when my friends complain about being impacted by crime.
    - toomuchtodo 4mo ago
      I ignore the feelings of others and trust the data of subject matter experts. Everyone has an opinion, reality is built on a foundation of data, evidence, and facts. Like flying a plane in IFR; ignore your senses and feelings, only rely on the instruments. “In God we trust. All others must bring data.”
- ceejayoz 4mo ago
  > they dont get to pick! They absolutely get to pick! https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-1-part-i-chapter-2 https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-1-part-i-chapter-... "“Prosecutorial discretion” is the authority of an agency charged with enforcing a law to decide whether to enforce, or not to enforce, the law against someone. USCIS, like other law enforcement agencies, has prosecutorial discretion and exercises it every day. In the immigration context, the term applies not only to the decision to issue a Notice to Appear (NTA), but also to a broad range of other discretionary immigration enforcement decisions."
- foolswisdom 4mo ago
  I recently read Economic Policy and Law in America (by William Letwin) and he discusses a bit (in the context of the early slow enforcement of the Sherman act) the fact that ultimately a prosecutor has limited resources, and any allocation comes at the expense of something else, so priorities absolutely do matter. And the prosecutor's office will coordinate with other law enforcement of course...
gruez 4mo ago
>for things like shoplifting and vandalism it should be double or triple damages with no prison What do you think the chances of being caught shoplifting is? If it's less than 50-33%, then you have the same problem as the OP where it makes sense to shoplift.
- scottlamb 4mo ago
  > What do you think the chances of being caught shoplifting is? If it's less than 50-33%, then you have the same problem as the OP where it makes sense to shoplift. Don't we already? Police and DAs at least here in California are not serious about punishing shoplifters AFAICT. I hear people say this is specifically because of the 2014 Proposition 47 (raising the threshold for felony theft from $400 to $950). Not sure that's true (misdemeanor theft can still be punished by up to six months of jail time and/or up to a $1,000 fine, and California's current thresholds are similar to other states) but there was a federal mandate to address prison overcrowding, and California chose to do that by not having as many prisoners instead of building a ton more prisons. Prop 47, and perhaps some policy changes made with far less fanfare, were intended to achieve that. There's still more deterrent for misdemeanor shoplifting than for nationwide egg price-fixing though!
  - gruez 4mo ago
    >Don't we already? So clearly we should... make it even more lenient? That's what OP was implying.
    - scottlamb 4mo ago
      Well, I qualified with "here in California", and I don't know if that's where tancop lives. I think the current situation is not great, but I'd want to fix it by investigating why we're seemingly unable/unwilling to impose the punishment currently on the books. I think it would be plenty if we did—to me, more than six months jail time for stealing <$950 would be excessive. We could increase the fines and decrease / take away the jail option, but does it matter? It's not happening anyway.
  - 4mo ago
ksbd-pls-finish 4mo ago
>in general we should be a lot more strict on sexual crimes (sa, trafficking, child abuse but not voluntary prostitution) and white collar/economic ones including wage theft, but less strict on drugs and property. drug possession and non commercial digital piracy should be decriminalized. Why? I mean, do you have a specific scientific research in mind, or is it something you feel is right? I mean, it makes sense to me, mostly, but "we should" presented without any evidence irks me a bit.
- atmavatar 4mo ago
  To start with, the war on drugs was initiated by Nixon as a way to target political enemies (hippies and non-whites).
  - mikestew 4mo ago
    [flagged]
    - sixothree 4mo ago
      It was really John Ehrlichman who revealed the truth. Listening to the Nixon tapes, he (Nixon) spent the entirety of his days scheming against political enemies and people he simply didn't like. https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-rich... You really shouldn't need a citation for something so easily verifiable.
      - mikestew 4mo ago
        That’s not easily verifiable, it’s one person’s account after Ehrlichman is long dead, the interviewer having dug through “old notes” many years after the interview.
        sixothree 4mo ago
        Sure but there is a lot of similar corresponding evidence in the nixon audio tape archives.
CrimsonCape 4mo ago
Imagine if small movie theaters could just show films at their own whim. You could have small theaters springing up everywhere. I'm sure there's a boot ready and waiting to smash down this from happening.

by tancop 4mo ago

DaedalusII 4mo ago

[flagged]

wetmore 4mo ago
They get to pick the sentencing they are aiming for, and that can depend on race.
benregenspan 4mo ago
There is a whole area of research on this. Prosecutors have significant discretion around charging and (suggested) sentence, and this allows bias to creep in. I've heard people debate the quality of specific research on the size of the bias, but not the mere idea that bias is possible at all.
LadyCailin 4mo ago
They absolutely get to pick. They pick which cases they choose to prosecute, plea bargain, or dismiss, as well as what sentence they choose to ask for.
kevin_thibedeau 4mo ago
They have discretion to not prosecute. I was nearly killed and left with significant injuries. The police conspired to undercharge and the prosecutor DGAF.
mcmcmc 4mo ago
1) they can be selective with which arrests result in charges 2) prosecutors can tell police straight up what they will or won’t prosecute, which affects what crimes cops will investigate or make an arrest for
toomuchtodo 4mo ago
American Bar: Prosecutors confront ugly repercussions of bias - https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2023/02/prosecutors-confront-bias/ https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2... - February 3rd, 2023 > The pervasive problems with racism in our criminal justice system has been clear. Black Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at nearly five times the rate of white Americans. > The systemic racism in the system starts before the first contact and continues through charging decisions, plea deals, conviction, sentencing recommendations, incarceration, release and beyond.
- cholmdomsky 4mo ago
  How do you respond when others use that information to instead assert "well of course they're incarcerated at a higher rate; they commit more, and worse crimes than -we- do!"
  - sejje 4mo ago
    I reassess and begin living in reality.
  - qwerpy 4mo ago
    I’ve given up trying to convince people about any of this. You will be accused of some -isms at best. So I just quietly use demographic information to pick where to live and where to send my kids to school. And try to be sympathetic when my friends complain about being impacted by crime.
  - toomuchtodo 4mo ago
    I ignore the feelings of others and trust the data of subject matter experts. Everyone has an opinion, reality is built on a foundation of data, evidence, and facts. Like flying a plane in IFR; ignore your senses and feelings, only rely on the instruments. “In God we trust. All others must bring data.”
ceejayoz 4mo ago
> they dont get to pick! They absolutely get to pick! https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-1-part-i-chapter-2 https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-1-part-i-chapter-... "“Prosecutorial discretion” is the authority of an agency charged with enforcing a law to decide whether to enforce, or not to enforce, the law against someone. USCIS, like other law enforcement agencies, has prosecutorial discretion and exercises it every day. In the immigration context, the term applies not only to the decision to issue a Notice to Appear (NTA), but also to a broad range of other discretionary immigration enforcement decisions."
foolswisdom 4mo ago
I recently read Economic Policy and Law in America (by William Letwin) and he discusses a bit (in the context of the early slow enforcement of the Sherman act) the fact that ultimately a prosecutor has limited resources, and any allocation comes at the expense of something else, so priorities absolutely do matter. And the prosecutor's office will coordinate with other law enforcement of course...

gruez 4mo ago

>for things like shoplifting and vandalism it should be double or triple damages with no prison What do you think the chances of being caught shoplifting is? If it's less than 50-33%, then you have the same problem as the OP where it makes sense to shoplift.

scottlamb 4mo ago
> What do you think the chances of being caught shoplifting is? If it's less than 50-33%, then you have the same problem as the OP where it makes sense to shoplift. Don't we already? Police and DAs at least here in California are not serious about punishing shoplifters AFAICT. I hear people say this is specifically because of the 2014 Proposition 47 (raising the threshold for felony theft from $400 to $950). Not sure that's true (misdemeanor theft can still be punished by up to six months of jail time and/or up to a $1,000 fine, and California's current thresholds are similar to other states) but there was a federal mandate to address prison overcrowding, and California chose to do that by not having as many prisoners instead of building a ton more prisons. Prop 47, and perhaps some policy changes made with far less fanfare, were intended to achieve that. There's still more deterrent for misdemeanor shoplifting than for nationwide egg price-fixing though!
- gruez 4mo ago
  >Don't we already? So clearly we should... make it even more lenient? That's what OP was implying.
  - scottlamb 4mo ago
    Well, I qualified with "here in California", and I don't know if that's where tancop lives. I think the current situation is not great, but I'd want to fix it by investigating why we're seemingly unable/unwilling to impose the punishment currently on the books. I think it would be plenty if we did—to me, more than six months jail time for stealing <$950 would be excessive. We could increase the fines and decrease / take away the jail option, but does it matter? It's not happening anyway.
- 4mo ago

ksbd-pls-finish 4mo ago

>in general we should be a lot more strict on sexual crimes (sa, trafficking, child abuse but not voluntary prostitution) and white collar/economic ones including wage theft, but less strict on drugs and property. drug possession and non commercial digital piracy should be decriminalized. Why? I mean, do you have a specific scientific research in mind, or is it something you feel is right? I mean, it makes sense to me, mostly, but "we should" presented without any evidence irks me a bit.

atmavatar 4mo ago
To start with, the war on drugs was initiated by Nixon as a way to target political enemies (hippies and non-whites).
- mikestew 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - sixothree 4mo ago
    It was really John Ehrlichman who revealed the truth. Listening to the Nixon tapes, he (Nixon) spent the entirety of his days scheming against political enemies and people he simply didn't like. https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-rich... You really shouldn't need a citation for something so easily verifiable.
    - mikestew 4mo ago
      That’s not easily verifiable, it’s one person’s account after Ehrlichman is long dead, the interviewer having dug through “old notes” many years after the interview.
      - sixothree 4mo ago
        Sure but there is a lot of similar corresponding evidence in the nixon audio tape archives.

CrimsonCape 4mo ago

Imagine if small movie theaters could just show films at their own whim. You could have small theaters springing up everywhere. I'm sure there's a boot ready and waiting to smash down this from happening.