8 ms·

3000 as that is the age of judea, the state central to jewish ethnogenesis. Netanyahu is an ashkenazi jew. His family traces back to ukraine and lithuania, whe

by gershy 3mo ago

3000 as that is the age of judea, the state central to jewish ethnogenesis. Netanyahu is an ashkenazi jew. His family traces back to ukraine and lithuania, where it remained jewish; unassimilated. Trace ancestors back further, and you will get to judea. The culture in judea provides a lens which very strongly helps to explain who netanyahu is today. If you trace back earlier than judea to e.g. canaanites, you will lose any useful lens for understanding jews today. This is why judea is not an arbitrary point in the timeline; it is the center of jewish ethnogenesis. Does that make sense?

hardbass 3mo ago
Yes and I am saying there is no naturalistic or scientific meaning to 3000. Its a number of selfish convenience. Israelis may try to say it is special, but it has no meaning to others.
- gershy 3mo ago
  The number is completely secondary - the significant thing is the location of the birthplace of the people/nation - that's what tells you who is indigenous to which land. I assume you concede that there is a perfectly valid reason for jews to be interested in the land that is roughly modern day israel/palestine, i.e. it is the place where jews originated.
  - hardbass 3mo ago
    No, why would it, they are "native" only if we pick this date, if we pick a different date they are native elsewhere. I can ask you likewise if you think its agreeable for a deported immigrant to begin terror attacks against the USA for that's how Israel began. Either you have legal rights to the land, or permission from those already living there or you don't. I don't care if its Chinese, Jewish, Somali, Indian. In my "dream scenario" Israel's land is relitigated. Those found to have valid purchases matching any in the last government (British or Ottoman) may stay. The rest are given a sum of money and a arrangement for immigration anywhere they wish. The remainder land is put into some kind of military trust and sold off via auctions to anyone in the world.
    - hardbass 3mo ago
      (This arrangement applies to only persons who are innocent victims ie born in Israel and saved up money to buy some property or inherited any. To these persons a sum deemed equivalent to the price of the property will be provided. To illegal settlers, nothing should be provided. Suitable criminal proceedings and punishment should occur for them.)
      - gershy 3mo ago
        Jewish ethnogenesis occurred in ancient israel plus judea. Yes or no?
        hardbass 3mo ago
        If jews want an ethnostate, then its valid for others also to want an ethnostate and boot out the foreign jews, yes or no? The answer is tied for both. I could just as much find the people with genetics tracing to that region who are Muslims and Christians today. And if I manage to muster a number larger than those fraction of Israeli jews with genetic roots there, what would you say? If I am 1% Native American and 99% English, what am I? Native or English?
        gershy 3mo ago
        There are two points here: 1. Do jews have an arbitrary or valid interest in israel/palestine? 2. Do other peoples have a valid, nonzero amount of interest in the same land? On #1 we seem to agree - of course the jewish interest in their indigenous land (the land of jewish ethnogenesis) is valid. And of course the answer to #2 is a clear "yes". If muslim passion for and capability to seize israel increased sufficiently, it could of course become a muslim state. It seems we entirely agree here, and you return to this point most often - but it's also a completely moot point as it applies evenly to all parties - isn't it? Jews have a unique claim to israel - they're the only people existing today which tightly trace their ethnogenesis to that region. Can you name another? (E.g. not palestinians - their ethnogenesis is strongly linked to islam / arabia.) (If we agree here, which I think we do, I'd love to discuss your "relitigation of israel" idea because I think it's interesting and bananas)

by gershy 3mo ago

hardbass 3mo ago

Yes and I am saying there is no naturalistic or scientific meaning to 3000. Its a number of selfish convenience. Israelis may try to say it is special, but it has no meaning to others.

gershy 3mo ago
The number is completely secondary - the significant thing is the location of the birthplace of the people/nation - that's what tells you who is indigenous to which land. I assume you concede that there is a perfectly valid reason for jews to be interested in the land that is roughly modern day israel/palestine, i.e. it is the place where jews originated.
- hardbass 3mo ago
  No, why would it, they are "native" only if we pick this date, if we pick a different date they are native elsewhere. I can ask you likewise if you think its agreeable for a deported immigrant to begin terror attacks against the USA for that's how Israel began. Either you have legal rights to the land, or permission from those already living there or you don't. I don't care if its Chinese, Jewish, Somali, Indian. In my "dream scenario" Israel's land is relitigated. Those found to have valid purchases matching any in the last government (British or Ottoman) may stay. The rest are given a sum of money and a arrangement for immigration anywhere they wish. The remainder land is put into some kind of military trust and sold off via auctions to anyone in the world.
  - hardbass 3mo ago
    (This arrangement applies to only persons who are innocent victims ie born in Israel and saved up money to buy some property or inherited any. To these persons a sum deemed equivalent to the price of the property will be provided. To illegal settlers, nothing should be provided. Suitable criminal proceedings and punishment should occur for them.)
    - gershy 3mo ago
      Jewish ethnogenesis occurred in ancient israel plus judea. Yes or no?
      - hardbass 3mo ago
        If jews want an ethnostate, then its valid for others also to want an ethnostate and boot out the foreign jews, yes or no? The answer is tied for both. I could just as much find the people with genetics tracing to that region who are Muslims and Christians today. And if I manage to muster a number larger than those fraction of Israeli jews with genetic roots there, what would you say? If I am 1% Native American and 99% English, what am I? Native or English?
        gershy 3mo ago
        There are two points here: 1. Do jews have an arbitrary or valid interest in israel/palestine? 2. Do other peoples have a valid, nonzero amount of interest in the same land? On #1 we seem to agree - of course the jewish interest in their indigenous land (the land of jewish ethnogenesis) is valid. And of course the answer to #2 is a clear "yes". If muslim passion for and capability to seize israel increased sufficiently, it could of course become a muslim state. It seems we entirely agree here, and you return to this point most often - but it's also a completely moot point as it applies evenly to all parties - isn't it? Jews have a unique claim to israel - they're the only people existing today which tightly trace their ethnogenesis to that region. Can you name another? (E.g. not palestinians - their ethnogenesis is strongly linked to islam / arabia.) (If we agree here, which I think we do, I'd love to discuss your "relitigation of israel" idea because I think it's interesting and bananas)