4 ms·

Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning and weaponry in war. You might not be able to fabricate billion terraflop GPUs but at least the basics of surv

by blitzar 3mo ago

Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning and weaponry in war. You might not be able to fabricate billion terraflop GPUs but at least the basics of survival will be able to be locally produced without scavenging washing machines for parts.

joe_mamba 3mo ago
>Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning The (western) economy runs on sub 7nm phone, laptop and datacenter chips on which the white collar workforce produces value. Those are the ones that are also the most profitable since they have the highest margins. Europe doesn't have that.
- upboundspiral 3mo ago
  Phones and laptops from a few years ago are not suddenly unusable. Yes, the cutting edge is very nice, but any laptop past 2016 is useable for the average person. Even gpu inference on older process nodes is perfectly doable. The HPC space absolutely prefers newer chips but hasn't ripped out their 2018 chips in their clusters because they still deliver value. And sure, the latest best things sells for higher margins for now, but with the way consumer prices are going, people may start choosing older still perfectly capable models that cost less. The greater danger to a working economy is not absence of the absolute must cutting edge chips but lack of independence which this initiative seems to seek to curtail. Good for Germany.
  - joe_mamba 3mo ago
    >Yes, the cutting edge is very nice, but any laptop past 2016 is useable for the average person. Except, it's the cutting edge that makes more money than making HW from 2016. And EU would definitely like to make more money rather than less. Plus, Germany and EU doesn't even make 2016 levels of PC HW to have sovereignty there. They still depend on importing US chips made in Taiwan even if they want 2016 HW. >people may start choosing older still perfectly capable models that cost less. Doesn't really matter what people are choosing, the high margin parts are going towards datacenter customers now, not to consumers. Consumers have little choice now. And with new consumer stuff seeing price increases, even old used HW is also seeing price increases due to supply and demand. And none of this is a win for Germany and the EU since they don't capture much value from this.
- jijijijij 3mo ago
  Europe's economy has a higher share in the industrial and agricultural sector. The US isn't the sole "western" benchmark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_secto...
- ifwinterco 3mo ago
  A drone will work with 30nm chips just fine, but it won't work with no chips at all
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - blitzar 3mo ago
    All it has to do is get somewhere and explode, the cheaper the better.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - joe_mamba 3mo ago
    How do you design the drone using 30nm chips in the fist place? Also, in that case, manufacturing capacity is what counts and EU lacks that too.
    - psd1 3mo ago
      Others have explained the gaps in your thinking, all over this thread. Why are you here?
- 1718627440 3mo ago
  They are the most profitable, but you don't need much of those. While you need tons of cheap chips for robotics in manufacturing. If you want to focus on profits, you focus on the former, if you want the backbone of your industry to be more resilient, you focus on the latter. In a case of an embargo, the consumers can use yesteryear's hardware just fine, while the robot with a fixed deprecation schedule needs to be replaced.
  - joe_mamba 3mo ago
    > the consumers can use yesteryear's hardware just fine, Eu can't make yesterday's HW either. Nor HW form yester-dacde.
    - 1718627440 3mo ago
      Yesteryears hardware was already made and is already owned by the people.
- jurgenburgen 3mo ago
  Maybe you just woke up from a coma but here in Europe we’re ramping up our industrial base for a shooting war with Russia after the US withdraws from NATO. I don’t think smartphones are the biggest concern.
  - joe_mamba 3mo ago
    Smartphones(apple and google) make a lot of money, money which you need to finance the war with Russia. And the non-Apple, non-Google smartphone, like Korea and China have, create the backbone of supply chain electronics that enable the Korean and Chinese military tech to be so advanced and cheap. How thick can you be to not see the importance of such an industry in the defense sector? You say Europe woke up from a coma, but from your argument, I can safely say we're still deep in it and there's no way we're ever waking up if the average Europoor thinks like you.
    - jurgenburgen 3mo ago
      I’m fine with taking back sovereignty on the smartphone side as well since we can’t really rely on Apple and Google to not do whatever the guy in the White House asks them to do but we have to walk before we run. If this thing evolves into a global war who would we export to?
      - I23 3mo ago
        When it comes to war with Russia, all the Fabs in Dresden are also primary targets for a strike with ballistic weapon systems. In the worst-case scenario, these will be attacked with conventional warheads or rather with a small thermonuclear warhead (EMP?). Probably the Fabs as a tactical target are even more in danger than MBDA in Bavaria or the tactical HQ of NATO in Rostock. Let's hope for a miracle that calms the escalation.

by blitzar 3mo ago

joe_mamba 3mo ago

>Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning The (western) economy runs on sub 7nm phone, laptop and datacenter chips on which the white collar workforce produces value. Those are the ones that are also the most profitable since they have the highest margins. Europe doesn't have that.

upboundspiral 3mo ago
Phones and laptops from a few years ago are not suddenly unusable. Yes, the cutting edge is very nice, but any laptop past 2016 is useable for the average person. Even gpu inference on older process nodes is perfectly doable. The HPC space absolutely prefers newer chips but hasn't ripped out their 2018 chips in their clusters because they still deliver value. And sure, the latest best things sells for higher margins for now, but with the way consumer prices are going, people may start choosing older still perfectly capable models that cost less. The greater danger to a working economy is not absence of the absolute must cutting edge chips but lack of independence which this initiative seems to seek to curtail. Good for Germany.
- joe_mamba 3mo ago
  >Yes, the cutting edge is very nice, but any laptop past 2016 is useable for the average person. Except, it's the cutting edge that makes more money than making HW from 2016. And EU would definitely like to make more money rather than less. Plus, Germany and EU doesn't even make 2016 levels of PC HW to have sovereignty there. They still depend on importing US chips made in Taiwan even if they want 2016 HW. >people may start choosing older still perfectly capable models that cost less. Doesn't really matter what people are choosing, the high margin parts are going towards datacenter customers now, not to consumers. Consumers have little choice now. And with new consumer stuff seeing price increases, even old used HW is also seeing price increases due to supply and demand. And none of this is a win for Germany and the EU since they don't capture much value from this.
jijijijij 3mo ago
Europe's economy has a higher share in the industrial and agricultural sector. The US isn't the sole "western" benchmark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_secto...
ifwinterco 3mo ago
A drone will work with 30nm chips just fine, but it won't work with no chips at all
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- blitzar 3mo ago
  All it has to do is get somewhere and explode, the cheaper the better.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- joe_mamba 3mo ago
  How do you design the drone using 30nm chips in the fist place? Also, in that case, manufacturing capacity is what counts and EU lacks that too.
  - psd1 3mo ago
    Others have explained the gaps in your thinking, all over this thread. Why are you here?
1718627440 3mo ago
They are the most profitable, but you don't need much of those. While you need tons of cheap chips for robotics in manufacturing. If you want to focus on profits, you focus on the former, if you want the backbone of your industry to be more resilient, you focus on the latter. In a case of an embargo, the consumers can use yesteryear's hardware just fine, while the robot with a fixed deprecation schedule needs to be replaced.
- joe_mamba 3mo ago
  > the consumers can use yesteryear's hardware just fine, Eu can't make yesterday's HW either. Nor HW form yester-dacde.
  - 1718627440 3mo ago
    Yesteryears hardware was already made and is already owned by the people.
jurgenburgen 3mo ago
Maybe you just woke up from a coma but here in Europe we’re ramping up our industrial base for a shooting war with Russia after the US withdraws from NATO. I don’t think smartphones are the biggest concern.
- joe_mamba 3mo ago
  Smartphones(apple and google) make a lot of money, money which you need to finance the war with Russia. And the non-Apple, non-Google smartphone, like Korea and China have, create the backbone of supply chain electronics that enable the Korean and Chinese military tech to be so advanced and cheap. How thick can you be to not see the importance of such an industry in the defense sector? You say Europe woke up from a coma, but from your argument, I can safely say we're still deep in it and there's no way we're ever waking up if the average Europoor thinks like you.
  - jurgenburgen 3mo ago
    I’m fine with taking back sovereignty on the smartphone side as well since we can’t really rely on Apple and Google to not do whatever the guy in the White House asks them to do but we have to walk before we run. If this thing evolves into a global war who would we export to?
    - I23 3mo ago
      When it comes to war with Russia, all the Fabs in Dresden are also primary targets for a strike with ballistic weapon systems. In the worst-case scenario, these will be attacked with conventional warheads or rather with a small thermonuclear warhead (EMP?). Probably the Fabs as a tactical target are even more in danger than MBDA in Bavaria or the tactical HQ of NATO in Rostock. Let's hope for a miracle that calms the escalation.