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"extremely reduced security" That's such a fun statement. Any security measures taken always remove agency from one person and give it to another. iOS takes

by kuschku 3mo ago

"extremely reduced security" That's such a fun statement. Any security measures taken always remove agency from one person and give it to another. iOS takes my control away, and in turn gives that control to Apple. GrapheneOS takes my control away and gives that to the GrapheneOS developers. The "security" you're talking about doesn't prevent certain data from being accessed, it just changes who controls the access. If the user cannot be trusted with their own data, then there is no solution anyway. They'll just tell their private data to a scammer on the phone instead. There is no solution against a user that wants to give their own data away, but if you try to prevent that, the only thing you'll accomplish is destroying general purpose computing.

gruez 3mo ago
>If the user cannot be trusted with their own data, then there is no solution anyway. They'll just tell their private data to a scammer on the phone instead. Security isn't binary. Putting up barriers makes it harder for scammers to steal money. There's a reason why they exploit malware to steal money, rather than asking their victims to send them crypto directly.
- kuschku 3mo ago
  > There's a reason why they exploit malware to steal money, rather than asking their victims to send them crypto directly. The vast majority of scams literally work by them asking their victims to buy cryptocurrency or gift cards directly. Malware is exceedingly rare. You know what would really help against scams? Avoid putting people in situations where they need to decide right now or they'll face punishment. Modern society has created far too many situations where people need to react without being able to think through the consequences. The only reason scams work is because there are enough actual situations with unnecessary life-or-death decisions.
  - gruez 3mo ago
    >The vast majority of scams literally work by them asking their victims to buy cryptocurrency or gift cards directly. Malware is exceedingly rare. Source? This article suggests otherwise: https://www.economist.com/interactive/asia/2026/04/10/scam-inc-has-a-new-weapon https://www.economist.com/interactive/asia/2026/04/10/scam-i... Moreover it seems to be limited to south east asia for now. Just because you're in the US and all the scams you're getting is cold calls from microsoft tech support, doesn't mean scams with smartphone malware doesn't exist. >You know what would really help against scams? Avoid putting people in situations where they need to decide right now or they'll face punishment. >The only reason scams work is because there are enough actual situations with unnecessary life-or-death decisions. In other words, "if we had world peace and everyone could hold hands and sing kumbaya, then we won't have to worry about scams!"
HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
Root access takes agency away from you and gives it to 3rd party software. It doesnt expand freedom at all, it just allows other software to abuse the user. With a proper security model and verified boot, you can be certain you, the user, are running exactly the OS you expect to run. You can also properly revoke permissions to software and gate access as you see fit. With root, you cannot guarantee you are running what you expect and apps have to exploit much less to get root access, or just keep root access if given by the user. You cannot revoke godhood, it can just lie and say you revoked it. There is nothing enforcing any security features.
- kuschku 3mo ago
  I just don't get why we need to argue about something — the right to general purpose computing — which has been answered decades ago? The user must be the administrator of their own device. Whether that's a laptop, desktop, PDA, mp3-player, smartphone, tablet, cyberdeck, netbook, or any other kind of computing device. The user must be able to overrule any and all decisions. That's the definition of ownership. Like, this was the reason why GNU was founded, and before that was the plot of the movie TRON.
  - HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
    Being the administrator and being able to sidestep OS protections are not the same thing. Without root, the user is in control of what application does what and how. With root, the user is not. Root is not freedom or ownership, like many try to claim. Root is a hacky shortcut to proper functionality. You can build and sign the OS with your own keys, without undermining the security of your device, and adding whatever functionality you want with the principle of least privilege. Its really funny because Tron, or at least Tron Legacy, is a great example of why godhood is dangerous and why a user and a program having root access is catastrophic.
    - kuschku 3mo ago
      Being an administrator is being root. That's the entire point. That whatever restrictions an app has set, I can override it if I need to. > You can build and sign the OS with your own keys, without undermining the security of your device, and adding whatever functionality you want with the principle of least privilege. Building a version of the OS and flashing that removes everything currently on the device. So if I ever need to overrule a restriction an app has set, I must have already granted myself the power to do so ahead of time. Which means there are only two viable paths forward: 1. If I assume that software is perfect, and I will never need to overrule a restriction software sets, I can use stock Android or Graphene OS 2. If I assume that at some point in the future I might someday need to overrule any restriction, I must grant myself root permissions from the start. Also, I don't need to grant root permissions to random apps. All that's needed is for the adb and the native file manager to be able to enter sudo mode and read any file, so that in worst case I can always pull all data off the device, and flash a version of the OS with my changes instead. If we want to go one step further, and want to apply the practical definition of the FSF rights of free software, you should also be able to replace any file using the builtin file manager in sudo mode.
fcpk 3mo ago
The sad part is that this has a solution. It's called adb root. Your adb stays locked unless you unlock it, and you're not able to get root on the phone. But you can through the adb shell, meaning that when app X wants to screw your data away from you you can still copy it. There is something deeply wrong about locking filesystems even from read access. GrapheneOS should at the very least give a full read-only access to the fs through (possibly) limited adb access.
- kuschku 3mo ago
  Absolutely! Even if they require (like with bootloader unlock) adb and screen unlock for access. That'd still allow you to free your data. Ideally though the native filemanager should just have a sudo mode that can be entered to access everything, if desired.

by kuschku 3mo ago

gruez 3mo ago

>If the user cannot be trusted with their own data, then there is no solution anyway. They'll just tell their private data to a scammer on the phone instead. Security isn't binary. Putting up barriers makes it harder for scammers to steal money. There's a reason why they exploit malware to steal money, rather than asking their victims to send them crypto directly.

kuschku 3mo ago
> There's a reason why they exploit malware to steal money, rather than asking their victims to send them crypto directly. The vast majority of scams literally work by them asking their victims to buy cryptocurrency or gift cards directly. Malware is exceedingly rare. You know what would really help against scams? Avoid putting people in situations where they need to decide right now or they'll face punishment. Modern society has created far too many situations where people need to react without being able to think through the consequences. The only reason scams work is because there are enough actual situations with unnecessary life-or-death decisions.
- gruez 3mo ago
  >The vast majority of scams literally work by them asking their victims to buy cryptocurrency or gift cards directly. Malware is exceedingly rare. Source? This article suggests otherwise: https://www.economist.com/interactive/asia/2026/04/10/scam-inc-has-a-new-weapon https://www.economist.com/interactive/asia/2026/04/10/scam-i... Moreover it seems to be limited to south east asia for now. Just because you're in the US and all the scams you're getting is cold calls from microsoft tech support, doesn't mean scams with smartphone malware doesn't exist. >You know what would really help against scams? Avoid putting people in situations where they need to decide right now or they'll face punishment. >The only reason scams work is because there are enough actual situations with unnecessary life-or-death decisions. In other words, "if we had world peace and everyone could hold hands and sing kumbaya, then we won't have to worry about scams!"

HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago

Root access takes agency away from you and gives it to 3rd party software. It doesnt expand freedom at all, it just allows other software to abuse the user. With a proper security model and verified boot, you can be certain you, the user, are running exactly the OS you expect to run. You can also properly revoke permissions to software and gate access as you see fit. With root, you cannot guarantee you are running what you expect and apps have to exploit much less to get root access, or just keep root access if given by the user. You cannot revoke godhood, it can just lie and say you revoked it. There is nothing enforcing any security features.

kuschku 3mo ago
I just don't get why we need to argue about something — the right to general purpose computing — which has been answered decades ago? The user must be the administrator of their own device. Whether that's a laptop, desktop, PDA, mp3-player, smartphone, tablet, cyberdeck, netbook, or any other kind of computing device. The user must be able to overrule any and all decisions. That's the definition of ownership. Like, this was the reason why GNU was founded, and before that was the plot of the movie TRON.
- HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
  Being the administrator and being able to sidestep OS protections are not the same thing. Without root, the user is in control of what application does what and how. With root, the user is not. Root is not freedom or ownership, like many try to claim. Root is a hacky shortcut to proper functionality. You can build and sign the OS with your own keys, without undermining the security of your device, and adding whatever functionality you want with the principle of least privilege. Its really funny because Tron, or at least Tron Legacy, is a great example of why godhood is dangerous and why a user and a program having root access is catastrophic.
  - kuschku 3mo ago
    Being an administrator is being root. That's the entire point. That whatever restrictions an app has set, I can override it if I need to. > You can build and sign the OS with your own keys, without undermining the security of your device, and adding whatever functionality you want with the principle of least privilege. Building a version of the OS and flashing that removes everything currently on the device. So if I ever need to overrule a restriction an app has set, I must have already granted myself the power to do so ahead of time. Which means there are only two viable paths forward: 1. If I assume that software is perfect, and I will never need to overrule a restriction software sets, I can use stock Android or Graphene OS 2. If I assume that at some point in the future I might someday need to overrule any restriction, I must grant myself root permissions from the start. Also, I don't need to grant root permissions to random apps. All that's needed is for the adb and the native file manager to be able to enter sudo mode and read any file, so that in worst case I can always pull all data off the device, and flash a version of the OS with my changes instead. If we want to go one step further, and want to apply the practical definition of the FSF rights of free software, you should also be able to replace any file using the builtin file manager in sudo mode.

fcpk 3mo ago

The sad part is that this has a solution. It's called adb root. Your adb stays locked unless you unlock it, and you're not able to get root on the phone. But you can through the adb shell, meaning that when app X wants to screw your data away from you you can still copy it. There is something deeply wrong about locking filesystems even from read access. GrapheneOS should at the very least give a full read-only access to the fs through (possibly) limited adb access.

kuschku 3mo ago
Absolutely! Even if they require (like with bootloader unlock) adb and screen unlock for access. That'd still allow you to free your data. Ideally though the native filemanager should just have a sudo mode that can be entered to access everything, if desired.