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Android users need to switch to Graphene. Someone needs to create a Linux based mobile OS foundation - Google's domination is contrary to many large companies

by khurs 3mo ago

Android users need to switch to Graphene. Someone needs to create a Linux based mobile OS foundation - Google's domination is contrary to many large companies interests, and if Meta and many other such companies were approached, they may well donate large sums of money in their own strategic interests.

preisschild 3mo ago
I wonder if it makes sense to create an independent hard-fork of AOSP in the future. But probably the only option to keep this somehow maintainable is to replace many android-specific components with other userspace linux components that are already well maintained (systemd, networkmanager, wayland)
- kalx 3mo ago
  Would this not require some control over the hardware? Which would be difficult for the FOSS community?
  - preisschild 3mo ago
    maybe not, heck people reverse engineered apple hardware and implemented it in various FOSS driver stacks But yeah, vendors maintaining their drivers upstream in FOSS projects would obviously make it easer
darig 3mo ago
[dead]
kalx 3mo ago
I tried. But then I didnt get access to essential services like banking and national resources.
- kalx 3mo ago
  Correction: i did get bank access. I just couldnt log into the bank without a google or apple controlled device.
- zerof1l 3mo ago
  Graphene OS user here. Almost all of the apps I tried work fine. All the banking apps I use work. Have you tried reaching out to the app developer or the service and explaining what Graphene OS is and asking them to support it? I was able to persuade one app to do it. [1] https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...
  - kalx 3mo ago
    Problem is that all banks require a national centrale controlled service for login (BankID in Norway). And it is this service that I cannot get to work running GrapheneOS. It worked a couple of months ago, but not anymore. And all customer services and complaints are directed to your bank who 1) has no idea what i am talking about and 2) no control over BankID verification requirements.
    - LadyCailin 3mo ago
      I’ve nearly decided to switch back to the code brick instead of BankID app. It’s less convenient, but with the way things are going, I’m just not sure I want to exist in the digital world much longer.
      - kalx 3mo ago
        Good idea. Maybe it wouldn’t be too bad to just attach the code brick to my keyring anyways.
        tedodor 3mo ago
        I switched to GrapheneOS a couple months ago, and the only real downside is that MitID (danish verison of BankID) doesn't work. I got the code brick and attached it to my keyring and it's honestly not that bad, I usually have the keys close by anyway. Also most apps that need MitID allow you to create a pin to log in without reverification once you've logged in once.
      - 3mo ago
- AlexAltea 3mo ago
  FWIW, I submitted an EU DMA complaint (Art 27 report) against Alphabet for unfair gatekeeping against third-party distributions like GrapheneOS via Play Integrity. More info: https://github.com/AlexAltea/blog/blob/master/posts/2026-06-25-dma-play-integrity/_main.md https://github.com/AlexAltea/blog/blob/master/posts/2026-06-... Convincing developers, especially bank and gov apps, is near impossible and won't scale well. Going after Alphabet for not meeting DMA obligations seems the easier path. Might not go anywhere but worth a shot.
  - preisschild 3mo ago
    > Convincing developers, especially bank and gov apps, is near impossible and won't scale well Not impossible though, my bank and govt eID app did do safetynet, but after enough users complained in both apps you can now skip a warning and use it without issues
    - bluebarbet 3mo ago
      The government and bank in question deserve to be named and praised.
      - preisschild 3mo ago
        Austrian eID app (ID Austria) + Erste Bank/Sparkasse AG (George Austria) AFAIK they make use of this: https://a-sit-plus.github.io/warden-supreme/integration/supreme/#trusting-grapheneos https://a-sit-plus.github.io/warden-supreme/integration/supr...
  - frm88 3mo ago
    Is there something we can do to support your efforts?
    - AlexAltea 3mo ago
      Only two things come to mind: 1. Provide or find pro bono legal resources deeply familiar with EU DMA and similar antitrust regulations, willing to proof-check and improve this report, and perhaps advise on better channels to submit it. 2. Locate more affected end-users, including applicable members of the GrapheneOS Foundation and developers behind other distributions, make them aware of these efforts so that hopefully we submit a joint complaint. (Might get more traction, though AFAICT reporting is limited to EU citizens). Happy to fork this into its own repository if it helps with collaboration.
- feelamee 3mo ago
  lol, this problem stopped me from installing GrapheneOS early. But now.. I removed banking apps by myself because my state require room them to collect phone fingerprint and access to location EACH time they opened. So... looks like now nothing stops me
hkgvk 3mo ago
The only reason I have not switched Graphene is because for reasons I do not understand, Graphene OS is very closely tied with Google hardware. I bought a /e/os Fairphone instead.
- cromka 3mo ago
  Those reasons are explained clearly and openly. Ironically, your /o/OS is way less open than GOS on Google hardware.
  - hkgvk 3mo ago
    I just want to be as far from Google as I can. I do not want to buy google hardware. Graphene does not allow me to do that.
    - cromka 3mo ago
      Not only you use Android OS developed by Google, somehow you choose a less open OS distribution, exposing you MORE to Google and their shit, only because you don't want to use their hardware that happens to actually be as open as it gets, including the firmware? Why do you choose to die on that hill? It's ridiculous!
    - palata 3mo ago
      I understand the anti-Google feeling, but... AOSP is open source and written by Google. If you strictly don't want Google, you don't use Android. But IMO it's a shame because AOSP is actually good. You could argue that you don't want to buy a Pixel because that would be giving money to Google, but not giving money to Google does not help the good alternatives, does it? IMO, helping the good alternatives means supporting GrapheneOS. The bigger GrapheneOS gets, the more likely it is that they get to work with major manufacturers (they already work with Motorola, which is great). If you buy a Fairphone and run LineageOS, you are still running Google code (AOSP) and you support Fairphone who do not seem to care so much about security (otherwise they would meet the requirements of GrapheneOS).
  - green7ea 3mo ago
Arnt 3mo ago
I know Graphene has innovative security measures, do you happen to know whether that includes anything wrt. phishing or social engineering? (For those who haven't been following along: this whole affair started with phishing. People were social-engineered into installing an app and a little later their bank accounts were empty. A big issue in various poor countries.)
- Aachen 3mo ago
  That's one of its primary arguments: besides the hardening against exploits, they're considered such a safe OS because you cannot access your data either and give the wrong app root access. Everything lives in a sandbox. Whether not being able to grant full access to e.g. adb shell, Termux, or Restic is what you want is a personal choice, but it adds a layer of security against any malware that tries to get you to grant them root access This is also the argument they use to try to convince app vendors to add their keys to the allowlist, because the app makers can trust that their DRM will be active (if Netflix sets a "no screen recording" flag, you the user cannot circumvent it by e.g. reading /dev/fb0). It should have broader compatibility than other FOSS Android builds (when running the officially signed version of course, you can't compile it yourself and expect such apps to run there)
  - kuschku 3mo ago
    So it doesn't actually do anything to give control of the device back to the user? One of the core tenets of truly free software is that I as user must be able to run, access, edit, and view everything.
    - armadyl 3mo ago
      You are free to make your own build of GrapheneOS with root access and have extremely reduced security. Just don’t expect support on the forums and waste everyone’s time when something happens.
      - kuschku 3mo ago
aquariusDue 3mo ago
I keep hoping for something more radical like Jolla and SailfishOS taking off or postmarketOS becoming a true viable alternative but as things are looking like now there's a better chance we'll ditch phones altogether in 10 years when smart glasses will replace them instead.
- DaSHacka 3mo ago
  Honestly don't think that would be so terrible, with how bad and locked down the mobile ecosystem has gotten. Rolling the dice on a new technology could wind up being much more favorable.
  - GuestFAUniverse 3mo ago
    What /new/ technology? The basically same platforms. Just smaller phones with more cameras recording everybody without consent.
- pbmonster 3mo ago
  > we'll ditch phones altogether in 10 years when smart glasses will replace them instead. Billions are spend right now to make sure the glasses also run Android or iOS. So far, Google, Samsung, Magic Leap, RealWear and Vuzix are working with/on Android XR, and obliviously Apple is working on AR/VR iOS. Meta and a couple of smaller startups are doing something in-house, but I don't give them much chances to get an ecosystem going.
  - fossman 3mo ago
    Linux is coming there too, see Raven Prism and Monaco Glass for example.
dryarzeg 3mo ago
> Android users need to switch to Graphene. Doesn't GrapheneOS supports only Google Pixel smartphones now? For most of the users, that would mean changing their phones beforehand. And if we're talking about common people (especially not in US), it's not even everyone who can afford that. Moreover, in my opinion, by buying Google phones you're feeding Google, and I, personally, would like to avoid that.
- preisschild 3mo ago
  > Doesn't GrapheneOS supports only Google Pixel smartphones now? For good reasons. Most other devices arent secure enough to guarantee privacy. Especially not if loaded with a custom operating system (most devices don't allow to verify the boot chain with a custom OS) > And if we're talking about common people (especially not in US), it's not even everyone who can afford that. You can get a new Pixel 9a here in europe for around 350€ and it will be supported at least until April 2032 > Moreover, in my opinion, by buying Google phones you're feeding Google, and I, personally, would like to avoid that. Google phones are surprisingly open and work well. Google takes a pro-user stance here that is extremely rare in the ecosystem, so why not support this product?
  - Forgeties79 3mo ago
    > Google phones are surprisingly open and work well. Google takes a pro-user stance here that is extremely rare in the ecosystem, so why not support this product? Because they will pull the rug here one day too. Why on earth should we trust them to keep this approach to their hardware?
    - cadamsdotcom 3mo ago
      Don’t defeat yourself in a one person battle. After all, it might rain tomorrow - but you should still go outside today.
      - Forgeties79 3mo ago
        My stance isn’t “give up.” My point is we should explore and expand non-Google alternatives for hardware.
Timshel 3mo ago
Not really a solution at the moment if you do not want to give money to Google by buying a Pixel (hopefully the deal with Motorola will work). Long term I would probably have more hopes in https://postmarketos.org/ https://postmarketos.org/
- cherryteastain 3mo ago
  Buy second hand
  - krieger_857 3mo ago
    not possible in countries where they don't sell them, import fees are astronomical
Pacers31Colts18 3mo ago
I get it, but it really sucks that Graphene only works on Pixel hardware. I switched to Samsung with my last phone.
- GuestFAUniverse 3mo ago
  Korean manufacturers are even worse when it comes to privacy violations. I use a Samsung too. The bloat, dark patterns and enshitification with every update are even worse.
- BLKNSLVR 3mo ago
  Out of the frying pan into the fire...
throwburn202605 3mo ago
GrapheneOS is currently the blessed child. Like CyanogenMod previously. They are "permitted" to access to Google Play Services because their work hardening Android currently benefits Google. Once Google feels like there is sufficient stability and compatibility with hardened memory allocator and tagged memory (and when they can get Qualcomm to support it across their range), they will make harder, until impossible, for Graphene. An old article [1] but: > Google’s Android—and [Open Handset Alliance] members are contractually prohibited from building non-Google approved devices So to compete you'd have to create a compatible Google Play Services as well as find a supporting manufacturer. Samsung managed their own competing apps and store [2] for a while along with Tizen, likely for leverage or theoretical pivot. But has since dropped that effort. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on... [2] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/google-bought-off-samsung-to-limit-app-store-competition-36-states-allege/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/google-bought-of...
- murderfs 3mo ago
  > They are "permitted" to access to Google Play Services because their work hardening Android currently benefits Google. Very little in GrapheneOS has gone back upstream post-Copperhead. > Once Google feels like there is sufficient stability and compatibility with hardened memory allocator and tagged memory (and when they can get Qualcomm to support it across their range), they will make harder, until impossible, for Graphene. What are you talking about? Google doesn't use hardened_malloc, and they literally invented MTE.
  - grapheneos 3mo ago
    > Very little in GrapheneOS has gone back upstream post-Copperhead. Most of what we've landed upstream has been post-Copperhead. AOSP made it increasingly difficult to contribute without being an Android partner and it's nearly impossible now. We've contributed elsewhere including to the Linux kernel and PowerDNS. We don't try to submit security improvements to the Linux kernel anymore based on direct experience of it not being worth the effort required but we still submit patches for bugs. We're not interested in arguing with upstream developers about whether security improvements are worthwhile so we won't contribute those changes to projects not enthusiastic about it. We've made recent contributions to various projects we use including PowerDNS because they don't make it too difficult to contribute. > What are you talking about? Google doesn't use hardened_malloc, and they literally invented MTE. Google didn't invent MTE or memory tagging. Pixel 8 launched in October 2023 as the first production device with MTE and GrapheneOS began using MTE in production later that month. Pixel OS still doesn't use MTE by default and only began offering a way to use it with Android 16 via Android Advanced Protection Mode (AAPM). AAPM only uses MTE for a few core processes and apps explicitly opting into it which are nearly non-existent. It doesn't use it for the kernel, most of the OS or almost any user installed apps. GrapheneOS uses MTE for the kernel, all of the base OS processes including apps with a tiny list of minor exceptions to work around HAL issues and many users installed apps by default. It supports opting into using MTE for all user installed apps by default and then disabling it for the ones not compatible with it which are becoming less common in large part due to GrapheneOS users reporting issues to app developers.
xandrius 3mo ago
I would say Ubuntu Touch + a Fairphone. Graphene is too reliant on Google.
hulitu 3mo ago
> Android users need to switch to Graphene. Which supports only Pixel devices.
- dolmen 3mo ago
  The resason is that only Google bothers to put enough hardware security features to build software on top that allows to make a really secure device that blocks tampering.
  - einpoklum 3mo ago
    That's not a reason. When the hardware doesn't have those "security features", then don't "really secure", just run without being "really secure". I never treat my (Android) phone as secure anyway.
    - lern_too_spel 3mo ago
      Security is GrapheneOS's raison d'être. If you don't want security, you can run another Android build that does run on the hardware you have.
      - einpoklum 3mo ago
        Well, they're not improving people's security overall by limiting themselves to Google's hardware.
        rpdillon 3mo ago
        Their goal is to hold a standard of security and privacy that can be trusted. They want the brand to be associated with that level of security and privacy. Sticking to Pixel allows them to leave their brand undiluted in this respect.
        HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
        Thats are improving peoples security overall by only using pixels at this time. Nothing else currently meets the hardware security requirements except pixel devices. To use subpar hardware would set the security back substantially. They are not going to compromise on security for the sake of broad device support. Also note that Motorola Mobility has stepped up to provide the needed hardware security features. So it will expand to a subset of Motorola devices next year.
delta_p_delta_x 3mo ago
> Linux based mobile OS So, Android?
- mghackerlady 3mo ago
  yet another reason why the distinction between Linux and GNU/Linux is important
  - palata 3mo ago
    And Alpine is not GNU/Linux, is it?
    - mghackerlady 3mo ago
      No, it isn't
stronglikedan 3mo ago
The reality is that these types of problems affect too few people to matter. No appreciable amount of people will switch, or are even capable of it. And even if you made it a no-brainer, most people aren't going to change the OS that came on their device, warranty or not.
grapheneos 3mo ago
> Linux based mobile OS foundation AOSP is a Linux-based mobile OS. It runs fine on top of standard Linux kernels without downstream changes. Getting rid of the need for closed source userspace drivers for components like a modern Mali GPU can be done with AOSP and will benefit the most people that way. AOSP if many companies and others band together to do it. It could also happen due to government intervention due to Google's antitrust law violations, but that could be done poorly in a way that harms open source.

by khurs 3mo ago

preisschild 3mo ago

I wonder if it makes sense to create an independent hard-fork of AOSP in the future. But probably the only option to keep this somehow maintainable is to replace many android-specific components with other userspace linux components that are already well maintained (systemd, networkmanager, wayland)

kalx 3mo ago
Would this not require some control over the hardware? Which would be difficult for the FOSS community?
- preisschild 3mo ago
  maybe not, heck people reverse engineered apple hardware and implemented it in various FOSS driver stacks But yeah, vendors maintaining their drivers upstream in FOSS projects would obviously make it easer

darig 3mo ago

[dead]

kalx 3mo ago

I tried. But then I didnt get access to essential services like banking and national resources.

kalx 3mo ago
Correction: i did get bank access. I just couldnt log into the bank without a google or apple controlled device.
zerof1l 3mo ago
Graphene OS user here. Almost all of the apps I tried work fine. All the banking apps I use work. Have you tried reaching out to the app developer or the service and explaining what Graphene OS is and asking them to support it? I was able to persuade one app to do it. [1] https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...
- kalx 3mo ago
  Problem is that all banks require a national centrale controlled service for login (BankID in Norway). And it is this service that I cannot get to work running GrapheneOS. It worked a couple of months ago, but not anymore. And all customer services and complaints are directed to your bank who 1) has no idea what i am talking about and 2) no control over BankID verification requirements.
  - LadyCailin 3mo ago
    I’ve nearly decided to switch back to the code brick instead of BankID app. It’s less convenient, but with the way things are going, I’m just not sure I want to exist in the digital world much longer.
    - kalx 3mo ago
      Good idea. Maybe it wouldn’t be too bad to just attach the code brick to my keyring anyways.
      - tedodor 3mo ago
        I switched to GrapheneOS a couple months ago, and the only real downside is that MitID (danish verison of BankID) doesn't work. I got the code brick and attached it to my keyring and it's honestly not that bad, I usually have the keys close by anyway. Also most apps that need MitID allow you to create a pin to log in without reverification once you've logged in once.
    - 3mo ago
AlexAltea 3mo ago
FWIW, I submitted an EU DMA complaint (Art 27 report) against Alphabet for unfair gatekeeping against third-party distributions like GrapheneOS via Play Integrity. More info: https://github.com/AlexAltea/blog/blob/master/posts/2026-06-25-dma-play-integrity/_main.md https://github.com/AlexAltea/blog/blob/master/posts/2026-06-... Convincing developers, especially bank and gov apps, is near impossible and won't scale well. Going after Alphabet for not meeting DMA obligations seems the easier path. Might not go anywhere but worth a shot.
- preisschild 3mo ago
  > Convincing developers, especially bank and gov apps, is near impossible and won't scale well Not impossible though, my bank and govt eID app did do safetynet, but after enough users complained in both apps you can now skip a warning and use it without issues
  - bluebarbet 3mo ago
    The government and bank in question deserve to be named and praised.
    - preisschild 3mo ago
      Austrian eID app (ID Austria) + Erste Bank/Sparkasse AG (George Austria) AFAIK they make use of this: https://a-sit-plus.github.io/warden-supreme/integration/supreme/#trusting-grapheneos https://a-sit-plus.github.io/warden-supreme/integration/supr...
- frm88 3mo ago
  Is there something we can do to support your efforts?
  - AlexAltea 3mo ago
    Only two things come to mind: 1. Provide or find pro bono legal resources deeply familiar with EU DMA and similar antitrust regulations, willing to proof-check and improve this report, and perhaps advise on better channels to submit it. 2. Locate more affected end-users, including applicable members of the GrapheneOS Foundation and developers behind other distributions, make them aware of these efforts so that hopefully we submit a joint complaint. (Might get more traction, though AFAICT reporting is limited to EU citizens). Happy to fork this into its own repository if it helps with collaboration.
feelamee 3mo ago
lol, this problem stopped me from installing GrapheneOS early. But now.. I removed banking apps by myself because my state require room them to collect phone fingerprint and access to location EACH time they opened. So... looks like now nothing stops me

hkgvk 3mo ago

The only reason I have not switched Graphene is because for reasons I do not understand, Graphene OS is very closely tied with Google hardware. I bought a /e/os Fairphone instead.

cromka 3mo ago
Those reasons are explained clearly and openly. Ironically, your /o/OS is way less open than GOS on Google hardware.
- hkgvk 3mo ago
  I just want to be as far from Google as I can. I do not want to buy google hardware. Graphene does not allow me to do that.
  - cromka 3mo ago
    Not only you use Android OS developed by Google, somehow you choose a less open OS distribution, exposing you MORE to Google and their shit, only because you don't want to use their hardware that happens to actually be as open as it gets, including the firmware? Why do you choose to die on that hill? It's ridiculous!
  - palata 3mo ago
    I understand the anti-Google feeling, but... AOSP is open source and written by Google. If you strictly don't want Google, you don't use Android. But IMO it's a shame because AOSP is actually good. You could argue that you don't want to buy a Pixel because that would be giving money to Google, but not giving money to Google does not help the good alternatives, does it? IMO, helping the good alternatives means supporting GrapheneOS. The bigger GrapheneOS gets, the more likely it is that they get to work with major manufacturers (they already work with Motorola, which is great). If you buy a Fairphone and run LineageOS, you are still running Google code (AOSP) and you support Fairphone who do not seem to care so much about security (otherwise they would meet the requirements of GrapheneOS).
- green7ea 3mo ago

Arnt 3mo ago

I know Graphene has innovative security measures, do you happen to know whether that includes anything wrt. phishing or social engineering? (For those who haven't been following along: this whole affair started with phishing. People were social-engineered into installing an app and a little later their bank accounts were empty. A big issue in various poor countries.)

Aachen 3mo ago
That's one of its primary arguments: besides the hardening against exploits, they're considered such a safe OS because you cannot access your data either and give the wrong app root access. Everything lives in a sandbox. Whether not being able to grant full access to e.g. adb shell, Termux, or Restic is what you want is a personal choice, but it adds a layer of security against any malware that tries to get you to grant them root access This is also the argument they use to try to convince app vendors to add their keys to the allowlist, because the app makers can trust that their DRM will be active (if Netflix sets a "no screen recording" flag, you the user cannot circumvent it by e.g. reading /dev/fb0). It should have broader compatibility than other FOSS Android builds (when running the officially signed version of course, you can't compile it yourself and expect such apps to run there)
- kuschku 3mo ago
  So it doesn't actually do anything to give control of the device back to the user? One of the core tenets of truly free software is that I as user must be able to run, access, edit, and view everything.
  - armadyl 3mo ago
    You are free to make your own build of GrapheneOS with root access and have extremely reduced security. Just don’t expect support on the forums and waste everyone’s time when something happens.
    - kuschku 3mo ago

aquariusDue 3mo ago

I keep hoping for something more radical like Jolla and SailfishOS taking off or postmarketOS becoming a true viable alternative but as things are looking like now there's a better chance we'll ditch phones altogether in 10 years when smart glasses will replace them instead.

DaSHacka 3mo ago
Honestly don't think that would be so terrible, with how bad and locked down the mobile ecosystem has gotten. Rolling the dice on a new technology could wind up being much more favorable.
- GuestFAUniverse 3mo ago
  What /new/ technology? The basically same platforms. Just smaller phones with more cameras recording everybody without consent.
pbmonster 3mo ago
> we'll ditch phones altogether in 10 years when smart glasses will replace them instead. Billions are spend right now to make sure the glasses also run Android or iOS. So far, Google, Samsung, Magic Leap, RealWear and Vuzix are working with/on Android XR, and obliviously Apple is working on AR/VR iOS. Meta and a couple of smaller startups are doing something in-house, but I don't give them much chances to get an ecosystem going.
- fossman 3mo ago
  Linux is coming there too, see Raven Prism and Monaco Glass for example.

dryarzeg 3mo ago

> Android users need to switch to Graphene. Doesn't GrapheneOS supports only Google Pixel smartphones now? For most of the users, that would mean changing their phones beforehand. And if we're talking about common people (especially not in US), it's not even everyone who can afford that. Moreover, in my opinion, by buying Google phones you're feeding Google, and I, personally, would like to avoid that.

preisschild 3mo ago
> Doesn't GrapheneOS supports only Google Pixel smartphones now? For good reasons. Most other devices arent secure enough to guarantee privacy. Especially not if loaded with a custom operating system (most devices don't allow to verify the boot chain with a custom OS) > And if we're talking about common people (especially not in US), it's not even everyone who can afford that. You can get a new Pixel 9a here in europe for around 350€ and it will be supported at least until April 2032 > Moreover, in my opinion, by buying Google phones you're feeding Google, and I, personally, would like to avoid that. Google phones are surprisingly open and work well. Google takes a pro-user stance here that is extremely rare in the ecosystem, so why not support this product?
- Forgeties79 3mo ago
  > Google phones are surprisingly open and work well. Google takes a pro-user stance here that is extremely rare in the ecosystem, so why not support this product? Because they will pull the rug here one day too. Why on earth should we trust them to keep this approach to their hardware?
  - cadamsdotcom 3mo ago
    Don’t defeat yourself in a one person battle. After all, it might rain tomorrow - but you should still go outside today.
    - Forgeties79 3mo ago
      My stance isn’t “give up.” My point is we should explore and expand non-Google alternatives for hardware.

Timshel 3mo ago

Not really a solution at the moment if you do not want to give money to Google by buying a Pixel (hopefully the deal with Motorola will work). Long term I would probably have more hopes in https://postmarketos.org/ https://postmarketos.org/

cherryteastain 3mo ago
Buy second hand
- krieger_857 3mo ago
  not possible in countries where they don't sell them, import fees are astronomical

Pacers31Colts18 3mo ago

I get it, but it really sucks that Graphene only works on Pixel hardware. I switched to Samsung with my last phone.

GuestFAUniverse 3mo ago
Korean manufacturers are even worse when it comes to privacy violations. I use a Samsung too. The bloat, dark patterns and enshitification with every update are even worse.
BLKNSLVR 3mo ago
Out of the frying pan into the fire...

throwburn202605 3mo ago

GrapheneOS is currently the blessed child. Like CyanogenMod previously. They are "permitted" to access to Google Play Services because their work hardening Android currently benefits Google. Once Google feels like there is sufficient stability and compatibility with hardened memory allocator and tagged memory (and when they can get Qualcomm to support it across their range), they will make harder, until impossible, for Graphene. An old article [1] but: > Google’s Android—and [Open Handset Alliance] members are contractually prohibited from building non-Google approved devices So to compete you'd have to create a compatible Google Play Services as well as find a supporting manufacturer. Samsung managed their own competing apps and store [2] for a while along with Tizen, likely for leverage or theoretical pivot. But has since dropped that effort. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on... [2] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/google-bought-off-samsung-to-limit-app-store-competition-36-states-allege/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/google-bought-of...

murderfs 3mo ago
> They are "permitted" to access to Google Play Services because their work hardening Android currently benefits Google. Very little in GrapheneOS has gone back upstream post-Copperhead. > Once Google feels like there is sufficient stability and compatibility with hardened memory allocator and tagged memory (and when they can get Qualcomm to support it across their range), they will make harder, until impossible, for Graphene. What are you talking about? Google doesn't use hardened_malloc, and they literally invented MTE.
- grapheneos 3mo ago
  > Very little in GrapheneOS has gone back upstream post-Copperhead. Most of what we've landed upstream has been post-Copperhead. AOSP made it increasingly difficult to contribute without being an Android partner and it's nearly impossible now. We've contributed elsewhere including to the Linux kernel and PowerDNS. We don't try to submit security improvements to the Linux kernel anymore based on direct experience of it not being worth the effort required but we still submit patches for bugs. We're not interested in arguing with upstream developers about whether security improvements are worthwhile so we won't contribute those changes to projects not enthusiastic about it. We've made recent contributions to various projects we use including PowerDNS because they don't make it too difficult to contribute. > What are you talking about? Google doesn't use hardened_malloc, and they literally invented MTE. Google didn't invent MTE or memory tagging. Pixel 8 launched in October 2023 as the first production device with MTE and GrapheneOS began using MTE in production later that month. Pixel OS still doesn't use MTE by default and only began offering a way to use it with Android 16 via Android Advanced Protection Mode (AAPM). AAPM only uses MTE for a few core processes and apps explicitly opting into it which are nearly non-existent. It doesn't use it for the kernel, most of the OS or almost any user installed apps. GrapheneOS uses MTE for the kernel, all of the base OS processes including apps with a tiny list of minor exceptions to work around HAL issues and many users installed apps by default. It supports opting into using MTE for all user installed apps by default and then disabling it for the ones not compatible with it which are becoming less common in large part due to GrapheneOS users reporting issues to app developers.

xandrius 3mo ago

I would say Ubuntu Touch + a Fairphone. Graphene is too reliant on Google.

hulitu 3mo ago

> Android users need to switch to Graphene. Which supports only Pixel devices.

dolmen 3mo ago
The resason is that only Google bothers to put enough hardware security features to build software on top that allows to make a really secure device that blocks tampering.
- einpoklum 3mo ago
  That's not a reason. When the hardware doesn't have those "security features", then don't "really secure", just run without being "really secure". I never treat my (Android) phone as secure anyway.
  - lern_too_spel 3mo ago
    Security is GrapheneOS's raison d'être. If you don't want security, you can run another Android build that does run on the hardware you have.
    - einpoklum 3mo ago
      Well, they're not improving people's security overall by limiting themselves to Google's hardware.
      - rpdillon 3mo ago
        Their goal is to hold a standard of security and privacy that can be trusted. They want the brand to be associated with that level of security and privacy. Sticking to Pixel allows them to leave their brand undiluted in this respect.
      - HybridStatAnim8 3mo ago
        Thats are improving peoples security overall by only using pixels at this time. Nothing else currently meets the hardware security requirements except pixel devices. To use subpar hardware would set the security back substantially. They are not going to compromise on security for the sake of broad device support. Also note that Motorola Mobility has stepped up to provide the needed hardware security features. So it will expand to a subset of Motorola devices next year.

delta_p_delta_x 3mo ago

> Linux based mobile OS So, Android?

mghackerlady 3mo ago
yet another reason why the distinction between Linux and GNU/Linux is important
- palata 3mo ago
  And Alpine is not GNU/Linux, is it?
  - mghackerlady 3mo ago
    No, it isn't

stronglikedan 3mo ago

The reality is that these types of problems affect too few people to matter. No appreciable amount of people will switch, or are even capable of it. And even if you made it a no-brainer, most people aren't going to change the OS that came on their device, warranty or not.

grapheneos 3mo ago

> Linux based mobile OS foundation AOSP is a Linux-based mobile OS. It runs fine on top of standard Linux kernels without downstream changes. Getting rid of the need for closed source userspace drivers for components like a modern Mali GPU can be done with AOSP and will benefit the most people that way. AOSP if many companies and others band together to do it. It could also happen due to government intervention due to Google's antitrust law violations, but that could be done poorly in a way that harms open source.