4 ms·

Society is the trolley problem. The balancing act between individual and collective rights is the lever being thrown every time we pass a law or make a regulati

Society is the trolley problem. The balancing act between individual and collective rights is the lever being thrown every time we pass a law or make a regulation. I can absolutely empathize though. It really is fucked up to experience it in the extreme. Usually the trade-offs are much more minor or have a big time delay or are more abstract.

zmgsabst 4mo ago
Lots of societies who started with some killing “for the common good” ended in atrocities. The statistics on men under 25 are still horrific and suggest this was in fact the latter category: atrocity masquerading behind that euphemism.
- Sammi 4mo ago
  No one is "killing" anyone. That is just a gross mischaracterization. Sometimes (like this) we just choose the least bad solution, that's it.
  - zmgsabst 4mo ago
    If you do something to a person and they die after, you killed them. If you can’t admit you’re killing people you absolutely lack the ethics to compel actions for others, as in your case here. COVID vaccines and their mandates absolutely did kill people — and you can believe that is justified, but if you cannot admit the fact, it’s a clear indication you’re not behaving ethically.
- InsideOutSanta 4mo ago
  Do you apply that same standard to other things, like cars? Do you feel allowing people to drive is also society "killing for the common good"? After more than eight billion doses of the vaccine, about twenty deaths were causally linked to the vaccine. Five times as many people die every day from traffic in the US alone, many of them children. What about gun ownership? How many people does that "kill for the common good"? And by that measure, isn't not vaccinating people an even bigger atrocity? Aren't you also arguing to kill people "for the common good" by not mandating vaccination?
  - LMYahooTFY 4mo ago
    Cars and gun ownership were not mandated by the government.
    - InsideOutSanta 4mo ago
      Yes, they are. I'm mandated by the government to live in a country that has cars and gun ownership.
      - defrost 4mo ago
        Your government refuses to let you leave the country? That aside, they also command you to own both a car and a gun?
        InsideOutSanta 4mo ago
        > Your government refuses to let you leave the country? This argument also applies to you: by your logic, vaccine mandates are perfectly fine because you can leave the country. > That aside, they also command you to own both a car and a gun? The problem isn't me owning a car and gun, the problem is obviously everybody else. I'm rather unlikely to drive into myself while driving my own car.
        defrost 4mo ago
        First up, for clarity, I have no issues with COVID vaccines and how they were used in Australia - the very few cases of myocarditis were mild and resulted in no deaths. Second up, I'm confused by your use of "mandate" and how your government mandates you to remain in that country. > by your logic, vaccine mandates are perfectly fine because you can leave the country. Not by my logic, nor that of Dana Scott, Christopher Strachey , Alonzo Church or others. > I'm rather unlikely to drive into myself while driving my own car. You can drive into a wall or off a cliff, and yes, injured by own car (or tractor) is an actual not infrequent injury.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
cryptoegorophy 4mo ago
I wonder if this is some kind of prisoners dilemma for society and individual choice.

zmgsabst 4mo ago

Lots of societies who started with some killing “for the common good” ended in atrocities. The statistics on men under 25 are still horrific and suggest this was in fact the latter category: atrocity masquerading behind that euphemism.

Sammi 4mo ago
No one is "killing" anyone. That is just a gross mischaracterization. Sometimes (like this) we just choose the least bad solution, that's it.
- zmgsabst 4mo ago
  If you do something to a person and they die after, you killed them. If you can’t admit you’re killing people you absolutely lack the ethics to compel actions for others, as in your case here. COVID vaccines and their mandates absolutely did kill people — and you can believe that is justified, but if you cannot admit the fact, it’s a clear indication you’re not behaving ethically.
InsideOutSanta 4mo ago
Do you apply that same standard to other things, like cars? Do you feel allowing people to drive is also society "killing for the common good"? After more than eight billion doses of the vaccine, about twenty deaths were causally linked to the vaccine. Five times as many people die every day from traffic in the US alone, many of them children. What about gun ownership? How many people does that "kill for the common good"? And by that measure, isn't not vaccinating people an even bigger atrocity? Aren't you also arguing to kill people "for the common good" by not mandating vaccination?
- LMYahooTFY 4mo ago
  Cars and gun ownership were not mandated by the government.
  - InsideOutSanta 4mo ago
    Yes, they are. I'm mandated by the government to live in a country that has cars and gun ownership.
    - defrost 4mo ago
      Your government refuses to let you leave the country? That aside, they also command you to own both a car and a gun?
      - InsideOutSanta 4mo ago
        > Your government refuses to let you leave the country? This argument also applies to you: by your logic, vaccine mandates are perfectly fine because you can leave the country. > That aside, they also command you to own both a car and a gun? The problem isn't me owning a car and gun, the problem is obviously everybody else. I'm rather unlikely to drive into myself while driving my own car.
        defrost 4mo ago
        First up, for clarity, I have no issues with COVID vaccines and how they were used in Australia - the very few cases of myocarditis were mild and resulted in no deaths. Second up, I'm confused by your use of "mandate" and how your government mandates you to remain in that country. > by your logic, vaccine mandates are perfectly fine because you can leave the country. Not by my logic, nor that of Dana Scott, Christopher Strachey , Alonzo Church or others. > I'm rather unlikely to drive into myself while driving my own car. You can drive into a wall or off a cliff, and yes, injured by own car (or tractor) is an actual not infrequent injury.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]

cryptoegorophy 4mo ago

I wonder if this is some kind of prisoners dilemma for society and individual choice.