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> Exoplanets also aren't planets. Imagine writing this.

Aerolfos 4mo ago
Actually, that is the IAU stance. And their definition for exoplanet includes small, non-rounded objects orbiting stars which would be asteroids (or comets or whatever) if they happened to be around the Sun. All that debacle around dwarf planets to prepare for future observations, and yet the distinction ceases to apply the moment you go outside the Oort cloud... But really, that's just the naming systems being bad, obviously common people don't think asteroids around other stars are "exoplanets" or should be called that way
- hparadiz 4mo ago
  I'm not talking about edge cases like asteroids or planetoids or dwarf planets. I'm talking about actual planets. Like a gas giant orbiting a star. It's obviously a planet even if it's not orbiting Sol.
  - ben_w 4mo ago
    It's perfectly coherent to argue that gas giants should count failed stars rather than as planets, given the boundary between them is under debate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WISE_0855%E2%88%920714 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WISE_0855%E2%88%920714
    - jibal 4mo ago
      It's perfectly irrelevant to the thread.
      - ben_w 4mo ago
        This thread is ~ "Exoplanets also aren't planets": discuss As the easiest to discover exoplanets (and all the early ones except pulsar planets) are gas giants, and the comment I was directly replying to had "Like a gas giant orbiting a star. It's obviously a planet", therefore "gas giants are failed stars and shouldn't count as planets" is not at all irrelevant. Even further up to the point of if these are or are not cell, it illustrates how taxonomical categories are made by humans for humans. Historically, any connection to natural laws in taxonomies is often mere coincidence.
- jibal 4mo ago
  This is quite wrong. https://www.iau.org/IAU/Science/What-we-do/Pluto-and-the-Developing-Landscape-of-Our-Solar-System.aspx https://www.iau.org/IAU/Science/What-we-do/Pluto-and-the-Dev... "More generally, a planet: a. orbits its host star, just as the Earth and Jupiter orbit the Sun, b. is large enough to be mostly round, and c. must have an important influence on the orbital stability of the other objects in its neighbourhood." Exoplanets are planets by that definition where the host star is not our Sun: "Researchers have found hundreds of extrasolar planets, or exoplanets, that reside outside our solar system. "
LeifCarrotson 4mo ago
What they meant when they said "planets" was the 8 (previously 9, previously to that 8, previously 7...) known and named planets in our own solar system. A hypothetical "Journal of Planets" that was actually about solar system astronomy wouldn't necessarily have known what to do with a new paper about 51 Pegasi b published 30 years ago. They're thinking "when we said planets, we actually always meant solar system planets, it just never came up until now". The reviewer of this paper is saying that by biology they always meant naturally evolved cellular biology, not synthetic biology - there's just never been an example of the latter before. I think the take is wrong, the receiving journals should be excited to expand their scope rather than frustratedly redefine their scope more narrowly, but definitions and categorization are hard.
- jibal 4mo ago
  > What they meant when they said "planets" Who is "they", and how do you know what they meant? The relevant fact is that the claim "Exoplanets also aren't planets" is simply wrong -- exoplanets are by definition planets outside the solar system. It's like claiming that a brown furple isn't a furple -- the claim is wrong, regardless of what one thinks a furple is. > The reviewer of this paper is saying that by biology they always meant naturally evolved cellular biology, not synthetic biology - there's just never been an example of the latter before. They aren't saying that, and that isn't true.
  - ben_w 4mo ago
    > exoplanets are by definition planets outside the solar system. It's like claiming that a brown furple isn't a furple -- the claim is wrong, regardless of what one thinks a furple is. If only language was so logical. While I happen to agree that exoplanets are planets, as with my point in the other comment, I aver the stronger claim ("regardless") does not follow in this context. Stonehenge, after which the concept of a henge is named, does not meet the current archeological definition of a henge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge Jerusalem artichokes are neither artichokes nor from Jerusalem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_artichoke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_artichoke Guinea pigs are not pigs and are not from Guinea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig The "mincemeat" in a mince pie is, these days, usually vegetarian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincemeat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincemeat Chinese checkers is German and plays nothing like checkers. Peanuts are not nuts, strawberries are not berries, hamburgers do not generally contain ham, a killer whale is actually a dolphin, etc.

Actually, that is the IAU stance. And their definition for exoplanet includes small, non-rounded objects orbiting stars which would be asteroids (or comets or whatever) if they happened to be around the Sun. All that debacle around dwarf planets to prepare for future observations, and yet the distinction ceases to apply the moment you go outside the Oort cloud... But really, that's just the naming systems being bad, obviously common people don't think asteroids around other stars are "exoplanets" or should be called that way

hparadiz 4mo ago
I'm not talking about edge cases like asteroids or planetoids or dwarf planets. I'm talking about actual planets. Like a gas giant orbiting a star. It's obviously a planet even if it's not orbiting Sol.
- ben_w 4mo ago
  It's perfectly coherent to argue that gas giants should count failed stars rather than as planets, given the boundary between them is under debate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WISE_0855%E2%88%920714 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WISE_0855%E2%88%920714
  - jibal 4mo ago
    It's perfectly irrelevant to the thread.
    - ben_w 4mo ago
      This thread is ~ "Exoplanets also aren't planets": discuss As the easiest to discover exoplanets (and all the early ones except pulsar planets) are gas giants, and the comment I was directly replying to had "Like a gas giant orbiting a star. It's obviously a planet", therefore "gas giants are failed stars and shouldn't count as planets" is not at all irrelevant. Even further up to the point of if these are or are not cell, it illustrates how taxonomical categories are made by humans for humans. Historically, any connection to natural laws in taxonomies is often mere coincidence.
jibal 4mo ago
This is quite wrong. https://www.iau.org/IAU/Science/What-we-do/Pluto-and-the-Developing-Landscape-of-Our-Solar-System.aspx https://www.iau.org/IAU/Science/What-we-do/Pluto-and-the-Dev... "More generally, a planet: a. orbits its host star, just as the Earth and Jupiter orbit the Sun, b. is large enough to be mostly round, and c. must have an important influence on the orbital stability of the other objects in its neighbourhood." Exoplanets are planets by that definition where the host star is not our Sun: "Researchers have found hundreds of extrasolar planets, or exoplanets, that reside outside our solar system. "

LeifCarrotson 4mo ago

What they meant when they said "planets" was the 8 (previously 9, previously to that 8, previously 7...) known and named planets in our own solar system. A hypothetical "Journal of Planets" that was actually about solar system astronomy wouldn't necessarily have known what to do with a new paper about 51 Pegasi b published 30 years ago. They're thinking "when we said planets, we actually always meant solar system planets, it just never came up until now". The reviewer of this paper is saying that by biology they always meant naturally evolved cellular biology, not synthetic biology - there's just never been an example of the latter before. I think the take is wrong, the receiving journals should be excited to expand their scope rather than frustratedly redefine their scope more narrowly, but definitions and categorization are hard.

jibal 4mo ago
> What they meant when they said "planets" Who is "they", and how do you know what they meant? The relevant fact is that the claim "Exoplanets also aren't planets" is simply wrong -- exoplanets are by definition planets outside the solar system. It's like claiming that a brown furple isn't a furple -- the claim is wrong, regardless of what one thinks a furple is. > The reviewer of this paper is saying that by biology they always meant naturally evolved cellular biology, not synthetic biology - there's just never been an example of the latter before. They aren't saying that, and that isn't true.
- ben_w 4mo ago
  > exoplanets are by definition planets outside the solar system. It's like claiming that a brown furple isn't a furple -- the claim is wrong, regardless of what one thinks a furple is. If only language was so logical. While I happen to agree that exoplanets are planets, as with my point in the other comment, I aver the stronger claim ("regardless") does not follow in this context. Stonehenge, after which the concept of a henge is named, does not meet the current archeological definition of a henge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge Jerusalem artichokes are neither artichokes nor from Jerusalem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_artichoke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_artichoke Guinea pigs are not pigs and are not from Guinea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig The "mincemeat" in a mince pie is, these days, usually vegetarian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincemeat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincemeat Chinese checkers is German and plays nothing like checkers. Peanuts are not nuts, strawberries are not berries, hamburgers do not generally contain ham, a killer whale is actually a dolphin, etc.