4 ms·

I watch one of those “apartments for rent in Japan” channels and I’m consistently shocked how inexpensive apartments are in lower tier cities / not Tokyo. Like

I watch one of those “apartments for rent in Japan” channels and I’m consistently shocked how inexpensive apartments are in lower tier cities / not Tokyo. Like a studio in an inconvenient part of Fukuoka for $200-250 a month. I guess the salaries are lower, but it’s hard to imagine such cheap rent in the equivalent American city.

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
brandall10 4mo ago
It's hard to compare to the US as a big part of this is the very weak yen. I spent a couple years traveling the world and punctuated my travels with a 2 week stop in Japan (Tokyo/Osaka/Kyoto) in May '24. I was not prepared for how inexpensive everything was... much less than several eastern European cities I had just come from, more on par with places like Mexico City.
- mitthrowaway2 4mo ago
  It was still very affordable in 2009 - 2014 when the yen was not weak.
taeric 4mo ago
I mean... You are looking at a place that is about 250 square feet? There isn't an appetite for offering units that small in the US.
- keiferski 4mo ago
  I don’t agree at all — plenty of college students, 20-30s somethings would love a space like this in NYC, SF, etc. at a lower price point than what’s currently available. The limits seem to be from legal restrictions on minimum apartment size, not market demand.
  - gabriel-uribe 4mo ago
    I think so too. I'm an early 30s that would love to pay a fraction of the current market rates for a Tokyo-sized unit in SF.
    - taeric 4mo ago
      When I was younger, this was only doable in larger US cities if you had roommates. And was quite common in that scenario. Doesn't change that it would be nice to have such offerings without having to navigate all of the extra stuff that comes from having roommates.
  - taeric 4mo ago
    Apologies, on that I agree. What we don't seem to have, is a willingness to build and offer these places. That is, I was specifically saying there is a lack of appetite to offer these. Not that there is lack of appetite to buy/rent them.
- hylaride 4mo ago
  The building codes in most jurisdictions wouldn't even allow such a thing, whether there would be demand for it or not. But the lengths people are willing to go for small apartments in top tier cities (NYC, especially) show that there is be demand in the right situations. Of course, the whole point of living in Manhattan is to not spend time at home. But there are interesting experiments going on. Where I live (Toronto) has had a huge build-out of small ~4-500sqf bachelors that were hoovered up by flippers and mom-n-pop landlords. At the peak of the boom, they were selling for ridiculous prices ($800K+) and the poor build quality of everything from elevators (of which there often weren't enough, resulting in lineups and long waits) to water pipes that burst meant that savvy prospective owners stay clear. There's a correction happening, but people don't want to unload their "investments" at below what they cost and since mortgages are recourse people can't just walk away. In theory there should be demand for these units from the young, corporate owners, 2nd homes in the city, etc. But the prices have just not come down enough to make any of those worthwhile.
  - nikanj 4mo ago
    In BC, the government bought all the unsold, unfit units to prop up the housing market. Your tax dollars at work!
  - taeric 4mo ago
    Right, I should have been clear that my assertion was not that there is lack of demand. My assertion is we don't build and offer this style. Outside of school dormitories. And even then, there is still a preference for bigger. Would love to see more on the correction you are referencing. So much of the discourse I see focusing on "starter homes." Which, these are not that.
    - hylaride 4mo ago
      There's a relatively expansive article here: https://financialpost.com/feature/toronto-condo-correction-fortunes-lost https://financialpost.com/feature/toronto-condo-correction-f... Also: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxq32zzq8eo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxq32zzq8eo
shagmin 4mo ago
Think I've heard anecdotes about Tokyo being pretty affordable as well. Quick search shows less than 1/3 of income typically spent on housing, which is much better than major US cities.
- gabriel-uribe 4mo ago
  Yep. Counterintuitively, housing in Japan depreciates unlike most of the world
  - zubiaur 4mo ago
    Wonder how it is like in other countries with shrinking populations. Say, Korea. Intuitively, it would make sense for housing prices to decrease when the demand decreases, supply being equal (It's not like housing deteriorates significantly in the short term).
    - jacobr1 4mo ago
      Demand for the big cities is still increasing pretty much everywhere, even if some countries are seeing net decrease in demand on the whole. Also remember that supply deteriorates. The number of "ready to move into" homes can decrease over time without maintenance and rebuilds.
    - gabriel-uribe 4mo ago
      Not sure about Korea, but Japan's case is more interesting than simply adjusting for population: the government strongly incentivizes new buildings every few decades. There is also a culture of viewing housing as a consumable, which is the part that sticks out to me the most.
      - red-iron-pine 4mo ago
        yeah there is an expectation that you're either building a shrine type building (in that it's gonna be built to last and venerated) that will be there for 300 years, or else you're gonna replace it in <30. that also leads to a lot of experimentation in architecture, since this building ain't gonna last so get weird. downside is it leads to a prefab corner cutting approach. my brother lived in japan for a while and he loved it, both the long-standing rural places that were legit old school, but also when he was in the city and sublet some hypermodern, querky places on the cheap.
bamboozled 4mo ago
Tokyo is massive, you can literally be living rural and still be in Tokyo. Could be an hour or more commute till you get into the metro area. Not all of Tokyo is nice either. They also probably won’t rent to “outsiders” without giving any explanation so…
ForHackernews 4mo ago
https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60?syn-25a6b1a6=1 https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3... > Here is a startling fact: in 2014 there were 142,417 housing starts in the city of Tokyo (population 13.3m, no empty land), more than the 83,657 housing permits issued in the state of California (population 38.7m), or the 137,010 houses started in the entire country of England (population 54.3m).
- brianwawok 4mo ago
  Houses in Europe are made to last 200 years. I know traditional rural Japan houses get used for 30-40 years and torn down. So can’t just go on housing starts, would need to go on delta of total units. As houses get torn down, replacing is expanding.
crooked-v 4mo ago
Part of that is that Japan actually builds housing, while literally every major US metro area has a massive self-inflicted shortage of housing (https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives/us-housing-shortage https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives...).

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

brandall10 4mo ago

It's hard to compare to the US as a big part of this is the very weak yen. I spent a couple years traveling the world and punctuated my travels with a 2 week stop in Japan (Tokyo/Osaka/Kyoto) in May '24. I was not prepared for how inexpensive everything was... much less than several eastern European cities I had just come from, more on par with places like Mexico City.

mitthrowaway2 4mo ago
It was still very affordable in 2009 - 2014 when the yen was not weak.

taeric 4mo ago

I mean... You are looking at a place that is about 250 square feet? There isn't an appetite for offering units that small in the US.

keiferski 4mo ago
I don’t agree at all — plenty of college students, 20-30s somethings would love a space like this in NYC, SF, etc. at a lower price point than what’s currently available. The limits seem to be from legal restrictions on minimum apartment size, not market demand.
- gabriel-uribe 4mo ago
  I think so too. I'm an early 30s that would love to pay a fraction of the current market rates for a Tokyo-sized unit in SF.
  - taeric 4mo ago
    When I was younger, this was only doable in larger US cities if you had roommates. And was quite common in that scenario. Doesn't change that it would be nice to have such offerings without having to navigate all of the extra stuff that comes from having roommates.
- taeric 4mo ago
  Apologies, on that I agree. What we don't seem to have, is a willingness to build and offer these places. That is, I was specifically saying there is a lack of appetite to offer these. Not that there is lack of appetite to buy/rent them.
hylaride 4mo ago
The building codes in most jurisdictions wouldn't even allow such a thing, whether there would be demand for it or not. But the lengths people are willing to go for small apartments in top tier cities (NYC, especially) show that there is be demand in the right situations. Of course, the whole point of living in Manhattan is to not spend time at home. But there are interesting experiments going on. Where I live (Toronto) has had a huge build-out of small ~4-500sqf bachelors that were hoovered up by flippers and mom-n-pop landlords. At the peak of the boom, they were selling for ridiculous prices ($800K+) and the poor build quality of everything from elevators (of which there often weren't enough, resulting in lineups and long waits) to water pipes that burst meant that savvy prospective owners stay clear. There's a correction happening, but people don't want to unload their "investments" at below what they cost and since mortgages are recourse people can't just walk away. In theory there should be demand for these units from the young, corporate owners, 2nd homes in the city, etc. But the prices have just not come down enough to make any of those worthwhile.
- nikanj 4mo ago
  In BC, the government bought all the unsold, unfit units to prop up the housing market. Your tax dollars at work!
- taeric 4mo ago
  Right, I should have been clear that my assertion was not that there is lack of demand. My assertion is we don't build and offer this style. Outside of school dormitories. And even then, there is still a preference for bigger. Would love to see more on the correction you are referencing. So much of the discourse I see focusing on "starter homes." Which, these are not that.
  - hylaride 4mo ago
    There's a relatively expansive article here: https://financialpost.com/feature/toronto-condo-correction-fortunes-lost https://financialpost.com/feature/toronto-condo-correction-f... Also: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxq32zzq8eo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxq32zzq8eo

shagmin 4mo ago

Think I've heard anecdotes about Tokyo being pretty affordable as well. Quick search shows less than 1/3 of income typically spent on housing, which is much better than major US cities.

gabriel-uribe 4mo ago
Yep. Counterintuitively, housing in Japan depreciates unlike most of the world
- zubiaur 4mo ago
  Wonder how it is like in other countries with shrinking populations. Say, Korea. Intuitively, it would make sense for housing prices to decrease when the demand decreases, supply being equal (It's not like housing deteriorates significantly in the short term).
  - jacobr1 4mo ago
    Demand for the big cities is still increasing pretty much everywhere, even if some countries are seeing net decrease in demand on the whole. Also remember that supply deteriorates. The number of "ready to move into" homes can decrease over time without maintenance and rebuilds.
  - gabriel-uribe 4mo ago
    Not sure about Korea, but Japan's case is more interesting than simply adjusting for population: the government strongly incentivizes new buildings every few decades. There is also a culture of viewing housing as a consumable, which is the part that sticks out to me the most.
    - red-iron-pine 4mo ago
      yeah there is an expectation that you're either building a shrine type building (in that it's gonna be built to last and venerated) that will be there for 300 years, or else you're gonna replace it in <30. that also leads to a lot of experimentation in architecture, since this building ain't gonna last so get weird. downside is it leads to a prefab corner cutting approach. my brother lived in japan for a while and he loved it, both the long-standing rural places that were legit old school, but also when he was in the city and sublet some hypermodern, querky places on the cheap.

bamboozled 4mo ago

Tokyo is massive, you can literally be living rural and still be in Tokyo. Could be an hour or more commute till you get into the metro area. Not all of Tokyo is nice either. They also probably won’t rent to “outsiders” without giving any explanation so…

ForHackernews 4mo ago

https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60?syn-25a6b1a6=1 https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3... > Here is a startling fact: in 2014 there were 142,417 housing starts in the city of Tokyo (population 13.3m, no empty land), more than the 83,657 housing permits issued in the state of California (population 38.7m), or the 137,010 houses started in the entire country of England (population 54.3m).

brianwawok 4mo ago
Houses in Europe are made to last 200 years. I know traditional rural Japan houses get used for 30-40 years and torn down. So can’t just go on housing starts, would need to go on delta of total units. As houses get torn down, replacing is expanding.

crooked-v 4mo ago

Part of that is that Japan actually builds housing, while literally every major US metro area has a massive self-inflicted shortage of housing (https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives/us-housing-shortage https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives...).