4 ms·

Europe seems to be going through an identity crisis lately, and i hope this sentiment doesn't continue. Europe becoming more reliant on the Chinese is not the a

Europe seems to be going through an identity crisis lately, and i hope this sentiment doesn't continue. Europe becoming more reliant on the Chinese is not the answer, and will, if continues, isolate the EU from the US.

squidbeak 3mo ago
Europe may face technological and economic challenges, but one thing it isn't suffering is 'an identity' crisis - except in the daydreams of right wing propagandists. The EU's identity is represented in its charter and the various treaties behind it. > Europe becoming more reliant on the Chinese is not the answer, and will, if continues, isolate the EU from the US There are sound reasons to avoid reliance on China, but the risk of isolation from a fading superpower - who befriends the EU's enemies, agitates in EU politics, inflict needless damage on the EU's economy, and insults EU leaders - isn't one of them.
- calgoo 3mo ago
  Also, don't forget how much they are medeling with the EU politics. Here in Spain the ultra right wing are following the thrump playbook step by step. Now I can't prove this, but with our current government standing up to both the US and Israel, there is a feeling that a bunch of money and "think tank" guidance is happening.
  - SubiculumCode 3mo ago
    It's Russia and the US and EU have long been under attack.
    - squidbeak 3mo ago
      Russia's meddling is malign. But did Russia send the USA's Vice President to Hungary to campaign on behalf of Viktor Orban?
      - SubiculumCode 3mo ago
        maybe, who knows. but the propaganda from russia has been pervasive...and its cause people live vance and trump to get elected.
- bloppe 3mo ago
  If AfD, RN, Futuro Nazionale and their ilk stay on their current trajectory, the identity crisis will become much harder to ignore
- jamiequint 3mo ago
  "Fading superpower" is typical EU cope. It may help to be a little bit introspective about why one might want to oppose EU politics, or its leaders, whose "leadership" over the last decade has led to unprecedented migrant, economic, and energy crises, and stalling growth.
  - thewebguyd 3mo ago
    No, fading is right. The US is willingly and deliberately ceding much of its soft power. The US also caused a global energy crisis by being so completely incompetent in their dealings with Iran in the on again off again toxic s/relationship/war Even if the US isn't fading, the message is still clear: the country is adopting a more isolationist stance and has no problems alienating its allies. Why would you want to continue to tie yourself to a nation like that?
  - squidbeak 3mo ago
    Seeing the word 'cope' lobbed out is usually a sure sign a poster is projecting, and so it is here. What exactly is there in the USA's destruction of the economic norms that have always served it, or in the pointless dumping of its hard-won soft power, alienation of its allies, deliberate weakening of its intelligence gatherers, rampant open corruption from its leadership, or in any other of the innumerable harms it's inflicted on itself the last 18 months, that you think is conducive to the US maintaining its superpower status?
    - burnerRhodov3 3mo ago
      Proving superiority? Proxy controlling venezuala, creating LLM's and locking down the frontier models while GLM has to distill the models to be remotely competitive, having the hard power to ensure Iran can't fire AK's into crowds and develop nukes... I don't get how this is not percieved as immense strength? How are people defending terrorists who have been consistently saying "Death to the West"
      - squidbeak 3mo ago
        "I can beat the shit out of the weakling in the school yard. Behold my superiority!"
- burnerRhodov3 3mo ago
  Look, i've lived in Europe for years. My wife is from switzerland. But what's with this rhetoric? It's one thing if a democratically elected president who will be out in 2 years is something you hate on... but it's turned from that. It seems every European consintely berates us, from a fundamentally level now. I won't defend trump, but what has threatening annexation of greenland done? Billions in additional military buildup, which is good for both our economies. What has threatening to leave Nato done? Billions in additional military buildup... Nato membership requires 2% of GDP to be spent on military, and until recently, very few memberstates fulfilled those requirements. Sometimes force and fear is the only way to get entities to wake up to the reality that you have a literal war on your doorstep, and you still seem to think US is your enemy. WAKE UP. We are allies, and in both world wars the American people have lost millions of lives to ensure your freedom. Russia and China are allies and Xi has said "No coorperation is forbidden between Russia and China." When China invades Taiwan, and the next world war starts, the only path forward is is for the EU and the US to REMAIN ALLIES. Don't let hate fill your heart, for things that have benefitted us both.
  - squidbeak 3mo ago
    > Nato membership requires 2% of GDP to be spent on military. No, actually it isn't a condition of NATO membership to spend 2% on defense. This is a myth. > It's one thing if a democratically elected president who will be out in 2 years is something you hate on... but it's turned from that. It seems every European consintely berates us, from a fundamentally level now. Do you think that having experienced this treatment from a nation previously trusted as a friend and ally that Europe can sensibly revert to its old confidence in the USA? Sure the Democrats might win power in 2028, or even a reformed and sensible Republican candidate. But who's to say the next populist Europhobic nutter isn't another 4 years behind them? This is the central problem for the US, that many of its citizens still won't confront: there are costs to unreliability, delinquency, bullying and threats. > I won't defend trump, but what has threatening annexation of greenland done? Billions in additional military buildup, which is good for both our economies. This is childishly fatuous. Europe, then, should be grateful to the US for threatening to invade it?
spacedcowboy 3mo ago
I mean, this is not necessarily a problem for the EU. Some might say it's a goal. The USA is far more dangerous a "friend" than China is an acquaintance. China has not been threatening military annexation, China does not randomly start trade (or real) wars. China doesn't just turn away from international commitments. Bottom line: China is a far better international partner than the USA.
- petilon 3mo ago
  > China has not been threatening military annexation Maybe not in Europe, but ask their Asian neighbors. > The USA is far more dangerous a "friend" than China is an acquaintance. That's true and will continue to be true for 2.5 more years. European countries too have had bad leaders (like Germany), but have recovered. So too will the US. > China is a far better international partner than the USA. China is not a democracy and does not share western values.
  - Laurel1234 3mo ago
    > China is not a democracy and does not share western values. True, but neither is the US.
- naim08 3mo ago
  > taiwan? > hk? trade wars... have you actually looked at how china uses trade as political bargaining tool??? Look at how China treats Japan, south korea, etc
  - surgical_fire 3mo ago
    Eminently, none of those places are in Europe
- energy123 3mo ago
  > China has not been threatening military annexation They've been doing military annexation right now in the South China Sea. > China does not randomly start trade (or real) wars. The invasion of Vietnam? The subsidization of industry and pegging their FX? > China doesn't just turn away from international commitments. Abandoning Ukraine despite being a signatory to an agreement that assures their defense? This is not an anti-China post. I don't like anti-XYZ country posts that create tension and make people defensive. I am not particularly against China more than other major powers. They have their interests and they pursue them selfishly, like other countries do. This is just a basic lesson about the world you live in.
surgical_fire 3mo ago
> Europe becoming more reliant on the Chinese is not the answer China should be dealt with as a normal country. There's no need for undue anxiety there. EU as a trade block should exercise reciprocity and protect its own interests accordingly though. As for LLMs, I see no issue in using Chinese models. With the talk of digital sovereignty, you can run open source models on EU datacenters without necessarily having to spend the money to train them. > isolate the EU from the US. That is not a bad thing. In fact, I hope this separation grows stronger. It was about time European countries lifted themselves from the US shadow.
- WarmWash 3mo ago
  China is an authoritarian ethnostate with mock capitalism experiments. If you want to climb into Xi Jinpeng's garden where he has absolute uncontested unilateral control for life, well, be warned.
  - surgical_fire 3mo ago
    I want to climb nothing. I said that the EU should have normal relations with China. It has no reason to inherit the US anxiety about China being a contender in the world stage. Trade with it normally, do trade deals where it makes sense, use reciprocity and protectionism where it fits. This should be pretty uncontroversial.
    - burnerRhodov3 3mo ago
      >Trade with it normally, do trade deals where it makes sense, use reciprocity and protectionism where it fits. This is extremely controversial. Where do you draw the line? Ev's are okay, cause the climate... Oh, wait, our own car industry dies? It's okay competition! Oh wait... They have no min wage or safety standards? Oh shit, where'd our auto industry go...? Oh, guess that didn't make sense... Lets tarrif... And on and on and on, with every industry.

squidbeak 3mo ago

Europe may face technological and economic challenges, but one thing it isn't suffering is 'an identity' crisis - except in the daydreams of right wing propagandists. The EU's identity is represented in its charter and the various treaties behind it. > Europe becoming more reliant on the Chinese is not the answer, and will, if continues, isolate the EU from the US There are sound reasons to avoid reliance on China, but the risk of isolation from a fading superpower - who befriends the EU's enemies, agitates in EU politics, inflict needless damage on the EU's economy, and insults EU leaders - isn't one of them.

calgoo 3mo ago
Also, don't forget how much they are medeling with the EU politics. Here in Spain the ultra right wing are following the thrump playbook step by step. Now I can't prove this, but with our current government standing up to both the US and Israel, there is a feeling that a bunch of money and "think tank" guidance is happening.
- SubiculumCode 3mo ago
  It's Russia and the US and EU have long been under attack.
  - squidbeak 3mo ago
    Russia's meddling is malign. But did Russia send the USA's Vice President to Hungary to campaign on behalf of Viktor Orban?
    - SubiculumCode 3mo ago
      maybe, who knows. but the propaganda from russia has been pervasive...and its cause people live vance and trump to get elected.
bloppe 3mo ago
If AfD, RN, Futuro Nazionale and their ilk stay on their current trajectory, the identity crisis will become much harder to ignore
jamiequint 3mo ago
"Fading superpower" is typical EU cope. It may help to be a little bit introspective about why one might want to oppose EU politics, or its leaders, whose "leadership" over the last decade has led to unprecedented migrant, economic, and energy crises, and stalling growth.
- thewebguyd 3mo ago
  No, fading is right. The US is willingly and deliberately ceding much of its soft power. The US also caused a global energy crisis by being so completely incompetent in their dealings with Iran in the on again off again toxic s/relationship/war Even if the US isn't fading, the message is still clear: the country is adopting a more isolationist stance and has no problems alienating its allies. Why would you want to continue to tie yourself to a nation like that?
- squidbeak 3mo ago
  Seeing the word 'cope' lobbed out is usually a sure sign a poster is projecting, and so it is here. What exactly is there in the USA's destruction of the economic norms that have always served it, or in the pointless dumping of its hard-won soft power, alienation of its allies, deliberate weakening of its intelligence gatherers, rampant open corruption from its leadership, or in any other of the innumerable harms it's inflicted on itself the last 18 months, that you think is conducive to the US maintaining its superpower status?
  - burnerRhodov3 3mo ago
    Proving superiority? Proxy controlling venezuala, creating LLM's and locking down the frontier models while GLM has to distill the models to be remotely competitive, having the hard power to ensure Iran can't fire AK's into crowds and develop nukes... I don't get how this is not percieved as immense strength? How are people defending terrorists who have been consistently saying "Death to the West"
    - squidbeak 3mo ago
      "I can beat the shit out of the weakling in the school yard. Behold my superiority!"
burnerRhodov3 3mo ago
Look, i've lived in Europe for years. My wife is from switzerland. But what's with this rhetoric? It's one thing if a democratically elected president who will be out in 2 years is something you hate on... but it's turned from that. It seems every European consintely berates us, from a fundamentally level now. I won't defend trump, but what has threatening annexation of greenland done? Billions in additional military buildup, which is good for both our economies. What has threatening to leave Nato done? Billions in additional military buildup... Nato membership requires 2% of GDP to be spent on military, and until recently, very few memberstates fulfilled those requirements. Sometimes force and fear is the only way to get entities to wake up to the reality that you have a literal war on your doorstep, and you still seem to think US is your enemy. WAKE UP. We are allies, and in both world wars the American people have lost millions of lives to ensure your freedom. Russia and China are allies and Xi has said "No coorperation is forbidden between Russia and China." When China invades Taiwan, and the next world war starts, the only path forward is is for the EU and the US to REMAIN ALLIES. Don't let hate fill your heart, for things that have benefitted us both.
- squidbeak 3mo ago
  > Nato membership requires 2% of GDP to be spent on military. No, actually it isn't a condition of NATO membership to spend 2% on defense. This is a myth. > It's one thing if a democratically elected president who will be out in 2 years is something you hate on... but it's turned from that. It seems every European consintely berates us, from a fundamentally level now. Do you think that having experienced this treatment from a nation previously trusted as a friend and ally that Europe can sensibly revert to its old confidence in the USA? Sure the Democrats might win power in 2028, or even a reformed and sensible Republican candidate. But who's to say the next populist Europhobic nutter isn't another 4 years behind them? This is the central problem for the US, that many of its citizens still won't confront: there are costs to unreliability, delinquency, bullying and threats. > I won't defend trump, but what has threatening annexation of greenland done? Billions in additional military buildup, which is good for both our economies. This is childishly fatuous. Europe, then, should be grateful to the US for threatening to invade it?

spacedcowboy 3mo ago

I mean, this is not necessarily a problem for the EU. Some might say it's a goal. The USA is far more dangerous a "friend" than China is an acquaintance. China has not been threatening military annexation, China does not randomly start trade (or real) wars. China doesn't just turn away from international commitments. Bottom line: China is a far better international partner than the USA.

petilon 3mo ago
> China has not been threatening military annexation Maybe not in Europe, but ask their Asian neighbors. > The USA is far more dangerous a "friend" than China is an acquaintance. That's true and will continue to be true for 2.5 more years. European countries too have had bad leaders (like Germany), but have recovered. So too will the US. > China is a far better international partner than the USA. China is not a democracy and does not share western values.
- Laurel1234 3mo ago
  > China is not a democracy and does not share western values. True, but neither is the US.
naim08 3mo ago
> taiwan? > hk? trade wars... have you actually looked at how china uses trade as political bargaining tool??? Look at how China treats Japan, south korea, etc
- surgical_fire 3mo ago
  Eminently, none of those places are in Europe
energy123 3mo ago
> China has not been threatening military annexation They've been doing military annexation right now in the South China Sea. > China does not randomly start trade (or real) wars. The invasion of Vietnam? The subsidization of industry and pegging their FX? > China doesn't just turn away from international commitments. Abandoning Ukraine despite being a signatory to an agreement that assures their defense? This is not an anti-China post. I don't like anti-XYZ country posts that create tension and make people defensive. I am not particularly against China more than other major powers. They have their interests and they pursue them selfishly, like other countries do. This is just a basic lesson about the world you live in.

surgical_fire 3mo ago

> Europe becoming more reliant on the Chinese is not the answer China should be dealt with as a normal country. There's no need for undue anxiety there. EU as a trade block should exercise reciprocity and protect its own interests accordingly though. As for LLMs, I see no issue in using Chinese models. With the talk of digital sovereignty, you can run open source models on EU datacenters without necessarily having to spend the money to train them. > isolate the EU from the US. That is not a bad thing. In fact, I hope this separation grows stronger. It was about time European countries lifted themselves from the US shadow.

WarmWash 3mo ago
China is an authoritarian ethnostate with mock capitalism experiments. If you want to climb into Xi Jinpeng's garden where he has absolute uncontested unilateral control for life, well, be warned.
- surgical_fire 3mo ago
  I want to climb nothing. I said that the EU should have normal relations with China. It has no reason to inherit the US anxiety about China being a contender in the world stage. Trade with it normally, do trade deals where it makes sense, use reciprocity and protectionism where it fits. This should be pretty uncontroversial.
  - burnerRhodov3 3mo ago
    >Trade with it normally, do trade deals where it makes sense, use reciprocity and protectionism where it fits. This is extremely controversial. Where do you draw the line? Ev's are okay, cause the climate... Oh, wait, our own car industry dies? It's okay competition! Oh wait... They have no min wage or safety standards? Oh shit, where'd our auto industry go...? Oh, guess that didn't make sense... Lets tarrif... And on and on and on, with every industry.