3 ms·

I'm a former LHCb physicist and I worked for years in the cavern, fixing the cables you saw :) Thanks for your enthusiasm. Obviously, things seen from the insid

by g6pdh 3mo ago

I'm a former LHCb physicist and I worked for years in the cavern, fixing the cables you saw :) Thanks for your enthusiasm. Obviously, things seen from the inside aren't as ideal as a non-physicist person might think. There are the usual power dynamics you find in academia: PhD students and postdocs exploited to do service and technical work instead of independent research, careerism, researchers who have to worry more about symbolic roles and political aspects than actual research, as if the PhD->Postdoc->Tenure->Professor career model serves to create real expertise and not vice versa. In general (personally) I've felt a strong sense of frustration at how modern research in particle physics is producing papers that are all identical to each other and have no true scientific impact, other than increasing the h-index, hoping to get a permanent position somewhere. Forgive the outburst, I'm in the IT industry now and I'm feeling definitely better, but eventually it was great and educational to do research at CERN.

atemerev 3mo ago
I am in the industry too and I wish to get back to the academia sometimes. Sadly, CERN is not hiring Russians no matter what are their political convictions (I am pro-Ukraine, of course). But yes, as a Geneva resident, I was at the tunnels too (Alice), and I am always in awe every time I see this wonder of the modern world. Sometimes I wonder how actual humans could build this, much like people did for the pyramids.
- PradeetPatel 3mo ago
  >Sadly, CERN is not hiring Russians Is that even legal under Swiss discrimination laws?
  - Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
    Try proving they're rejected because of their nationality. That said, CERN itself does have some official statements on the matter: - The International Cooperation Agreement has been terminated in 2023, following the invasion of Ukraine (https://international-relations.web.cern.ch/stakeholder-relations/states/Russian-Federation https://international-relations.web.cern.ch/stakeholder-rela...) - Their recruitment policy states they source among their member states except when they really really can't find someone to fill a position from there (https://careers.cern/recruitment-policy/ https://careers.cern/recruitment-policy/). I'm not sure if / how that works together with discrimination laws, however, discrimination is a different subject than nationality I think. I can't just work in the US, not because I'm Dutch but because of visum / labor / market protection / etc laws. And with CERN, added factors to consider are international funding, espionage, sabotage, etc. Some countries may decide to pull funding if CERN were to, for example, continue working with Russia or hire Russians. tl;dr it's a lot more complicated than discrimination.
  - Symbiote 3mo ago
    I don't think CERN is bound by Swiss laws. It's an intergovernmental organization with sovereign immunities.
    - stuff4ben 3mo ago
      Is that a thing? Can an organization be given sovereign immunity? I thought that was reserved for actual countries?
      - Symbiote 3mo ago
        Yes, and it's not unusual for organizations like the World Health Organization, the UN or its agencies, the Red Cross etc. Examples: https://repository.cern/records/ypas9-j5751 https://repository.cern/records/ypas9-j5751 https://cds.cern.ch/record/1035110/files/cer-002693576.pdf https://cds.cern.ch/record/1035110/files/cer-002693576.pdf https://www.icrc.org/en/document/status-update-icrcs-legal-standing-explained https://www.icrc.org/en/document/status-update-icrcs-legal-s...
  - atemerev 3mo ago
    They told you that CERN is an international org, and this is true, but it is also apparently legal under Swiss discrimination laws. I was declined a pure math position because of "knowledge security reasons" - for nothing but my passport. And it was legal, as discrimination laws apparently has many exceptions. I am not happy about it, but there's little I can do.
- elashri 3mo ago
  CERN stopped hiring non member or associate member states citizens for some time now. Except in very rare circumstances, This applies to US citizens as much as Russians too. You might disagree on that but we all know that it was political pressure.
kashyapc 3mo ago
> felt a strong sense of frustration at how modern research in particle physics is producing papers that are all identical to each other and have no true scientific impact Your comment above makes me think of Sabine Hossenfelder[1]. I'm sure you must've heard of her. I know she's somewhat of a "polarizing" figure. As a former "insider", do you think her core point stands? (Which is, the particle physics field has largely nothing to show for after spending billions of public money. Some particle physicists have even predicted so-called "unparticles", which almost sounds like trolling!) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Hossenfelder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Hossenfelder
- g6pdh 3mo ago
  Yes, I know her and I agree with what she says. I also think many physicists working in the field secretly agree with her but it's a taboo to admit it openly. As an insider I can assure you that currently most analyses in experimental particle physics are a mechanical repetition of previous analyses with a few slight modifications to adapt them to the bigger statistics. It's true that it could simply be an effect due to the experiments lifetime, that have been running for 20 years now and where younger generations are struggling to come up with ideas not yet explored. I can speak less from the perspective of theoretical physics, but it seems obvious to all those in the field that there's a proliferation of papers proposing new particles, new interactions, etc. with no real impact.
  - kashyapc 3mo ago
    I see; thanks for expanding on it so honestly.
  - cauch 3mo ago
    I am also a former CERN scientist, and while I agree with the fact that recent papers are more and more a box-checking exercise with low value, I'm concerned on how Hossenfelder misrepresent the causes of that and the situation. You say yourself that this situation can be simply an effect due to the experiment lifetime, and I also think it's a reasonable hypothesis. What gives me pause with Hossenfelder is that she jumps to another conclusion, without any good observation for it or without scientific approach. These conclusions seem to be fed by the easy trap of "it's a conspiracy". We know how easy it is for people to give credit to these theses and to totally overlook that some claims are, in practice, totally unrealistic (so we have thousands of new PhD students and postdocs exploring how it works every year, the majority of them leaving the field, and strangely, the very very big majority choose, for absolutely no good reason, to keep hidden the secret they saw). I agree with some of Hossenfelder's observations, but I find her conclusions often unsubstantiated, overstating elements that are more realistically way rarer than what she described and overlooking plenty of valid hypotheses. The fact that these "great revelations" brings her viewership also fit with a slow crank-ification. The fact that she also released videos on subjects outside of her domain and that these videos contained a lot of approximation also does not give a good image of how reliable is her approach (not that it is a crime to not know something outside of your field of expertise, but it should be something that a good scientist should be fully aware of, and they should simply not do such video in the first place). I'm not sure if there is a real "taboo" to openly agree with her, I think it is more about the fact that she destroyed herself her own reputation with bad calls and bad conclusions, and people don't really want to tarnish themselves by association.
sylware 3mo ago
[dead]
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]

by g6pdh 3mo ago

atemerev 3mo ago

I am in the industry too and I wish to get back to the academia sometimes. Sadly, CERN is not hiring Russians no matter what are their political convictions (I am pro-Ukraine, of course). But yes, as a Geneva resident, I was at the tunnels too (Alice), and I am always in awe every time I see this wonder of the modern world. Sometimes I wonder how actual humans could build this, much like people did for the pyramids.

PradeetPatel 3mo ago
>Sadly, CERN is not hiring Russians Is that even legal under Swiss discrimination laws?
- Cthulhu_ 3mo ago
  Try proving they're rejected because of their nationality. That said, CERN itself does have some official statements on the matter: - The International Cooperation Agreement has been terminated in 2023, following the invasion of Ukraine (https://international-relations.web.cern.ch/stakeholder-relations/states/Russian-Federation https://international-relations.web.cern.ch/stakeholder-rela...) - Their recruitment policy states they source among their member states except when they really really can't find someone to fill a position from there (https://careers.cern/recruitment-policy/ https://careers.cern/recruitment-policy/). I'm not sure if / how that works together with discrimination laws, however, discrimination is a different subject than nationality I think. I can't just work in the US, not because I'm Dutch but because of visum / labor / market protection / etc laws. And with CERN, added factors to consider are international funding, espionage, sabotage, etc. Some countries may decide to pull funding if CERN were to, for example, continue working with Russia or hire Russians. tl;dr it's a lot more complicated than discrimination.
- Symbiote 3mo ago
  I don't think CERN is bound by Swiss laws. It's an intergovernmental organization with sovereign immunities.
  - stuff4ben 3mo ago
    Is that a thing? Can an organization be given sovereign immunity? I thought that was reserved for actual countries?
    - Symbiote 3mo ago
      Yes, and it's not unusual for organizations like the World Health Organization, the UN or its agencies, the Red Cross etc. Examples: https://repository.cern/records/ypas9-j5751 https://repository.cern/records/ypas9-j5751 https://cds.cern.ch/record/1035110/files/cer-002693576.pdf https://cds.cern.ch/record/1035110/files/cer-002693576.pdf https://www.icrc.org/en/document/status-update-icrcs-legal-standing-explained https://www.icrc.org/en/document/status-update-icrcs-legal-s...
- atemerev 3mo ago
  They told you that CERN is an international org, and this is true, but it is also apparently legal under Swiss discrimination laws. I was declined a pure math position because of "knowledge security reasons" - for nothing but my passport. And it was legal, as discrimination laws apparently has many exceptions. I am not happy about it, but there's little I can do.
elashri 3mo ago
CERN stopped hiring non member or associate member states citizens for some time now. Except in very rare circumstances, This applies to US citizens as much as Russians too. You might disagree on that but we all know that it was political pressure.

kashyapc 3mo ago

> felt a strong sense of frustration at how modern research in particle physics is producing papers that are all identical to each other and have no true scientific impact Your comment above makes me think of Sabine Hossenfelder[1]. I'm sure you must've heard of her. I know she's somewhat of a "polarizing" figure. As a former "insider", do you think her core point stands? (Which is, the particle physics field has largely nothing to show for after spending billions of public money. Some particle physicists have even predicted so-called "unparticles", which almost sounds like trolling!) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Hossenfelder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Hossenfelder

g6pdh 3mo ago
Yes, I know her and I agree with what she says. I also think many physicists working in the field secretly agree with her but it's a taboo to admit it openly. As an insider I can assure you that currently most analyses in experimental particle physics are a mechanical repetition of previous analyses with a few slight modifications to adapt them to the bigger statistics. It's true that it could simply be an effect due to the experiments lifetime, that have been running for 20 years now and where younger generations are struggling to come up with ideas not yet explored. I can speak less from the perspective of theoretical physics, but it seems obvious to all those in the field that there's a proliferation of papers proposing new particles, new interactions, etc. with no real impact.
- kashyapc 3mo ago
  I see; thanks for expanding on it so honestly.
- cauch 3mo ago
  I am also a former CERN scientist, and while I agree with the fact that recent papers are more and more a box-checking exercise with low value, I'm concerned on how Hossenfelder misrepresent the causes of that and the situation. You say yourself that this situation can be simply an effect due to the experiment lifetime, and I also think it's a reasonable hypothesis. What gives me pause with Hossenfelder is that she jumps to another conclusion, without any good observation for it or without scientific approach. These conclusions seem to be fed by the easy trap of "it's a conspiracy". We know how easy it is for people to give credit to these theses and to totally overlook that some claims are, in practice, totally unrealistic (so we have thousands of new PhD students and postdocs exploring how it works every year, the majority of them leaving the field, and strangely, the very very big majority choose, for absolutely no good reason, to keep hidden the secret they saw). I agree with some of Hossenfelder's observations, but I find her conclusions often unsubstantiated, overstating elements that are more realistically way rarer than what she described and overlooking plenty of valid hypotheses. The fact that these "great revelations" brings her viewership also fit with a slow crank-ification. The fact that she also released videos on subjects outside of her domain and that these videos contained a lot of approximation also does not give a good image of how reliable is her approach (not that it is a crime to not know something outside of your field of expertise, but it should be something that a good scientist should be fully aware of, and they should simply not do such video in the first place). I'm not sure if there is a real "taboo" to openly agree with her, I think it is more about the fact that she destroyed herself her own reputation with bad calls and bad conclusions, and people don't really want to tarnish themselves by association.

sylware 3mo ago

[dead]

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]