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> As a technical product manager, this 1000%. It's just irrelevant how bad code is unless it impacts the business. If you are, in fact, "a technical product ma

> As a technical product manager, this 1000%. It's just irrelevant how bad code is unless it impacts the business. If you are, in fact, "a technical product manager", I would hope you understand that "bad code" is identified as such specifically because it "impacts the business."

Schiendelman 3mo ago
That is not how most engineers define bad code.
- AdieuToLogic 3mo ago
  > That is not how most engineers define bad code. The engineers I have worked with most definitely define "bad code" as having intrinsic limitations and/or latent defects which impact successful system functionality/operation. Indicators provided to stakeholders such as yourself which support this assessment are, but not limited to: - the system doesn't work that way - the system lacks test coverage, so changes take longer - adding feature "X" is not feasible - there is no repeatable way to onboard team members - the backlog grows exponentially - that "one point task" is going to take a couple weeks All of the above impacts a business. It is up to you, the "technical product manager", to understand what your team is trying to tell you.
  - Schiendelman 3mo ago
    Please stop being rude to me. I'm a human being, I'm a very experienced product manager and engineer (you can google my name, I'm the only one), and the way you are behaving sucks. Everything you're saying is true, sometimes. Assume I'm still right, and that you might be able to learn something from someone else.
    - AdieuToLogic 3mo ago
      > Please stop being rude to me. I do not see how I was being rude, unless it was my use of quotations around the title you claim. > I'm a human being ... I did not doubt this. > ... I'm a very experienced product manager and engineer ... Again, if it was my use of quotations which you found to be rude, then I do not know what to say about that. > ... and the way you are behaving sucks. I respect your perspective and support your right to express yourself. And no, I do not think you are being rude by doing so. > Assume I'm still right ... Why would I? You responded to: >> This is a site full of developers who are convinced that "proper software engineering" is 100% of what makes a business successful, and everything and everyone else is useless. With: > As a technical product manager, this 1000%. Finally, you write: > ... you might be able to learn something from someone else. Maybe you can learn something from someone else as well.
    - dgellow 3mo ago
      Googling your name brings this missing person case as the only results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Logan_Schiendelman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Logan_Schiend...
      - Schiendelman 3mo ago
        I guess if all you did was paste my last name into Google with no context, you'd get something like that. :)
    - hack1312 3mo ago
      There was nothing rude about any of their replies.
      - Schiendelman 3mo ago
        "If you are, in fact, a 'technical product manager'" is extremely rude.
        hack1312 3mo ago
        It’s hardly rude, let alone “extremely” rude. People who are transgender are straight up told to kill themselves daily on social media by bigots and you’re melting down over someone having the temerity to question some random account’s (ie, you) credentials? Grow some thicker skin.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        You think telling someone to stop being rude and then not continuing to engage with them is melting down?
        hack1312 3mo ago
        I think having the audacity to call “extremely rude” something as benign as barely questioning an anonymous account’s credentials is the definition of melting down.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        I do not think you believe that. But good luck!
        nomel 3mo ago
        It's definitely rude to suggest someone is lying.
        3mo ago
    - slopinthebag 3mo ago
      They weren’t rude enough. Your complete apathy towards the many antisocial effects of badly engineered software, caring only about increasing shareholder value, is the reason why modern software not only sucks but actively makes our lives worse to use it.
      - Schiendelman 3mo ago
        Interesting. So you believe that I don't think software quality affects the business?
        slopinthebag 3mo ago
        No, you said it yourself, you don't believe software quality matters unless it "impacts the business". > It's just irrelevant how bad code is unless it impacts the business So the negative effects of poor code quality are completely irrelevant to you as long as they don't affect the bottom line. Sorry if you think I'm being rude. I think it's ruder to make peoples lives worse because you only care about profits.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        So you've got this low code quality that somehow doesn't impact product quality but at the same time makes someone's life worse? Can you give me a concrete example? Help me understand. I'm coming at this from having been in test for a long time before product, I care quite a bit about cquality, so it's really fascinating to see you respond this way.
        slopinthebag 3mo ago
        Of course it impacts product quality, in fact that's really what matters, code quality is just a useful proxy for that since they're so highly correlated.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago

Schiendelman 3mo ago

That is not how most engineers define bad code.

AdieuToLogic 3mo ago
> That is not how most engineers define bad code. The engineers I have worked with most definitely define "bad code" as having intrinsic limitations and/or latent defects which impact successful system functionality/operation. Indicators provided to stakeholders such as yourself which support this assessment are, but not limited to: - the system doesn't work that way - the system lacks test coverage, so changes take longer - adding feature "X" is not feasible - there is no repeatable way to onboard team members - the backlog grows exponentially - that "one point task" is going to take a couple weeks All of the above impacts a business. It is up to you, the "technical product manager", to understand what your team is trying to tell you.
- Schiendelman 3mo ago
  Please stop being rude to me. I'm a human being, I'm a very experienced product manager and engineer (you can google my name, I'm the only one), and the way you are behaving sucks. Everything you're saying is true, sometimes. Assume I'm still right, and that you might be able to learn something from someone else.
  - AdieuToLogic 3mo ago
    > Please stop being rude to me. I do not see how I was being rude, unless it was my use of quotations around the title you claim. > I'm a human being ... I did not doubt this. > ... I'm a very experienced product manager and engineer ... Again, if it was my use of quotations which you found to be rude, then I do not know what to say about that. > ... and the way you are behaving sucks. I respect your perspective and support your right to express yourself. And no, I do not think you are being rude by doing so. > Assume I'm still right ... Why would I? You responded to: >> This is a site full of developers who are convinced that "proper software engineering" is 100% of what makes a business successful, and everything and everyone else is useless. With: > As a technical product manager, this 1000%. Finally, you write: > ... you might be able to learn something from someone else. Maybe you can learn something from someone else as well.
  - dgellow 3mo ago
    Googling your name brings this missing person case as the only results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Logan_Schiendelman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Logan_Schiend...
    - Schiendelman 3mo ago
      I guess if all you did was paste my last name into Google with no context, you'd get something like that. :)
  - hack1312 3mo ago
    There was nothing rude about any of their replies.
    - Schiendelman 3mo ago
      "If you are, in fact, a 'technical product manager'" is extremely rude.
      - hack1312 3mo ago
        It’s hardly rude, let alone “extremely” rude. People who are transgender are straight up told to kill themselves daily on social media by bigots and you’re melting down over someone having the temerity to question some random account’s (ie, you) credentials? Grow some thicker skin.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        You think telling someone to stop being rude and then not continuing to engage with them is melting down?
        hack1312 3mo ago
        I think having the audacity to call “extremely rude” something as benign as barely questioning an anonymous account’s credentials is the definition of melting down.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        I do not think you believe that. But good luck!
        nomel 3mo ago
        It's definitely rude to suggest someone is lying.
        3mo ago
  - slopinthebag 3mo ago
    They weren’t rude enough. Your complete apathy towards the many antisocial effects of badly engineered software, caring only about increasing shareholder value, is the reason why modern software not only sucks but actively makes our lives worse to use it.
    - Schiendelman 3mo ago
      Interesting. So you believe that I don't think software quality affects the business?
      - slopinthebag 3mo ago
        No, you said it yourself, you don't believe software quality matters unless it "impacts the business". > It's just irrelevant how bad code is unless it impacts the business So the negative effects of poor code quality are completely irrelevant to you as long as they don't affect the bottom line. Sorry if you think I'm being rude. I think it's ruder to make peoples lives worse because you only care about profits.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        So you've got this low code quality that somehow doesn't impact product quality but at the same time makes someone's life worse? Can you give me a concrete example? Help me understand. I'm coming at this from having been in test for a long time before product, I care quite a bit about cquality, so it's really fascinating to see you respond this way.
        slopinthebag 3mo ago
        Of course it impacts product quality, in fact that's really what matters, code quality is just a useful proxy for that since they're so highly correlated.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago