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Marx fails to imagine a world in which labor actually has little to no value. His worldview is primarily that capitalists 'steal' the valuable labor. However

Marx fails to imagine a world in which labor actually has little to no value. His worldview is primarily that capitalists 'steal' the valuable labor. However it doesn't seem that that is actually the world we are in. Instead the intrinsic value of human labor seems to be slowly trending towards zero. And it kind of makes sense, same has happened with oxen labor, horse labor, etc.

arthurptj 3mo ago
Then why does every plumber I know own a yacht
- cucumber3732842 3mo ago
  Industry cartel. If you landscaper had one like the plumbers do he'd have his own yacht. Or he wouldn't exist because you'd buy about as much of his services as you do a plumber's.
- AngryData 3mo ago
  Because you live in a prosperous area and the plumbers unionized in order to maintain wage growth along side their neighbors.
AlotOfReading 3mo ago
It doesn't seem like the value of human labor is going away. If you look at luxury goods, they're still "handmade". Telecoms still advertise human representatives. Nursing homes still charge massive amounts for personal service. What's changing is how much of that surplus value is captured by the workers doing the labor.
saghm 3mo ago
> And it kind of makes sense, same has happened with oxen labor, horse labor, etc. Sounds like we should start imagining a world where we don't treat people like literal livestock, and then figure out how to get there fast
wqaatwt 3mo ago
Isn’t it the complete opposite? i.e. high automatization means that a single worker can create many times more value than before. However it reduces the demand for labor and worker bargaining power. So companies have no incentive to pair “fair” wages.
- aeternum 3mo ago
  That is true but likely only temporarily. Why is the single worker even needed? We tend to have a pretty human-centric worldview so if there's a single human working to keep a hotel running, our default is to attribute all the generated value to them when it really isn't the case. You can imagine that hotel at some point in the near future goes from requiring 1 worker to keep it running to zero.
  - wqaatwt 3mo ago
    > is the single worker even needed Because he is? I do not expect for some sort of universal “AGI” to emerge within my lifetime which would supplant humans in every area (of course what do I know.. but still there is no real indication we are even remotely close to that currently) > default is to attribute all the generated value to them when it really isn't the case Certainly, you should attribute a significant proportion to the people who installed the automated system and even more to those who designed it.
    - aeternum 3mo ago
      >Certainly, you should attribute a significant proportion to the people who installed the automated system and even more to those who designed it. Indeed, but what happens if/when they choose to sell the system and someone else buys it? Now the owner is who is generating the value. Even if he hires some maintenance worker to come by once and awhile and check up on it, it is the system (aka the capital), not the worker that is generating the vast majority of the value.
anthonypasq 3mo ago
low skilled human labor is going to zero. high skill approaches infinity.
torginus 3mo ago
> Marx fails to imagine a world in which labor actually has little to no value. Marxism was an idea formulated especially as a reaction against a world where labor has lost almost all of its value. Which is precisely the origin of capitalism - the idea that money itself can be productive, and thus people who have lots of money can be expected to get more of it. This was an untrue idea for most of human history, outside of the circles of moneylending and banking.

arthurptj 3mo ago

Then why does every plumber I know own a yacht

cucumber3732842 3mo ago
Industry cartel. If you landscaper had one like the plumbers do he'd have his own yacht. Or he wouldn't exist because you'd buy about as much of his services as you do a plumber's.
AngryData 3mo ago
Because you live in a prosperous area and the plumbers unionized in order to maintain wage growth along side their neighbors.

AlotOfReading 3mo ago

It doesn't seem like the value of human labor is going away. If you look at luxury goods, they're still "handmade". Telecoms still advertise human representatives. Nursing homes still charge massive amounts for personal service. What's changing is how much of that surplus value is captured by the workers doing the labor.

saghm 3mo ago

> And it kind of makes sense, same has happened with oxen labor, horse labor, etc. Sounds like we should start imagining a world where we don't treat people like literal livestock, and then figure out how to get there fast

wqaatwt 3mo ago

Isn’t it the complete opposite? i.e. high automatization means that a single worker can create many times more value than before. However it reduces the demand for labor and worker bargaining power. So companies have no incentive to pair “fair” wages.

aeternum 3mo ago
That is true but likely only temporarily. Why is the single worker even needed? We tend to have a pretty human-centric worldview so if there's a single human working to keep a hotel running, our default is to attribute all the generated value to them when it really isn't the case. You can imagine that hotel at some point in the near future goes from requiring 1 worker to keep it running to zero.
- wqaatwt 3mo ago
  > is the single worker even needed Because he is? I do not expect for some sort of universal “AGI” to emerge within my lifetime which would supplant humans in every area (of course what do I know.. but still there is no real indication we are even remotely close to that currently) > default is to attribute all the generated value to them when it really isn't the case Certainly, you should attribute a significant proportion to the people who installed the automated system and even more to those who designed it.
  - aeternum 3mo ago
    >Certainly, you should attribute a significant proportion to the people who installed the automated system and even more to those who designed it. Indeed, but what happens if/when they choose to sell the system and someone else buys it? Now the owner is who is generating the value. Even if he hires some maintenance worker to come by once and awhile and check up on it, it is the system (aka the capital), not the worker that is generating the vast majority of the value.

anthonypasq 3mo ago

low skilled human labor is going to zero. high skill approaches infinity.

torginus 3mo ago

> Marx fails to imagine a world in which labor actually has little to no value. Marxism was an idea formulated especially as a reaction against a world where labor has lost almost all of its value. Which is precisely the origin of capitalism - the idea that money itself can be productive, and thus people who have lots of money can be expected to get more of it. This was an untrue idea for most of human history, outside of the circles of moneylending and banking.