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> “High-intensity training reduced fat and maintained lean mass […] though changes were small and not clinically meaningful compared with exercise of lower inte

> “High-intensity training reduced fat and maintained lean mass […] though changes were small and not clinically meaningful compared with exercise of lower intensity…” High intensity does border on leading to injury — just making the wrong move — and you’re back to zero intensity?

baxtr 4mo ago
Really depends on how you define high-intensity. To build muscle, you need to push yourself to a limit. You can reduce the weight and increase the repetitions. This approach is just as effective and lowers the risk of injury.
- kakacik 4mo ago
  This is what I do. When I was beginning with weight training, I followed other's recommendations back then and pushed hard. Had quite often minor issues or injuries in the joints which set me back for weeks or even months, my tendons seem to be my weak spot and it does get worse with age, both limits and recovery. Lowered the load, increased repetitions and basically nothing for a decade. I can still go almost to the failure, I don't even want to reach it since I don't care about that extra bit. Squats or deadlifts are hard even when not at limits, one feels used body parts for a day or two. I still add cardio on top of that, its just basic logic of moving around a lot is very good for the body, even if effects are not immediately obvious.
  - lowdude 4mo ago
    So, how many reps did you start with and how many do you do nowadays?
    - kakacik 4mo ago
      Starting is a bit hazy, it was 15 years ago. I gradually got to cca 100kg deadlifts (maybe 5-6 reps each set) and maybe 70kg squats of similar reps/sets. These days its more about 15 reps, still 3 sets (plus one just 20kg barbel warmup). When I feel like I could do more, i add 3 or 5 reps, and/or do things slower, especially the lowering part. Weight wise its cca 60kg deadlifts, 50kg squats. I feel like I could do more, but with worse form and thats not a good idea. There are similar numbers for bench presses, dumbbell curls and few other exercises I sometimes add to mix. I was never bodybuilder and never looked accordingly but I didn't care, any strong-enough body is attractive to females, good confidence is present and connection to one's body is very good. It was always just training for actual stuff - long hikes, climbing, ski touring etc. Now with kids and after quite brutal paragliding accident that left me wheelchair-bound for few weeks, walked after 6 months and have some permanent changes in calcaneus, I am happy with anything and above is good enough for me, just need to sustain it.
  - iamacyborg 4mo ago
    > Squats or deadlifts are hard even when not at limits, one feels used body parts for a day or two. That’s just regular ‘ol DOMS and not a problem. Tendons tend to respond well to both heavy load or high reps, albeit adaptation in either case is very slow.
  - poilcn 4mo ago
    Well, your body knows nothing about number of reps or the weights. You can also do your reps slower.
- criddell 4mo ago
  Maybe with older adults the baseline goal should be to merely maintain or slow the loss of the muscle, mobility, and cardiovascular capacity they already have? It's not realistic for a 50 year old to think they could build muscle year-after-year for the next 30 years.
  - vidarh 4mo ago
    For the next 30 years, probably not, but mostly because you can get really strong really quickly, as most adults are really weak. It's not that unusual for people to pick up e.g. powerlifting past 50 and still get to levels well beyond what most younger adults can lift. I'm 51, and recently back into powerlifting after many years out of it, and I certainly expect to build back muscle and improving week over week for many years before I can't stem the decline any more, as long as avoid injury or health issues that takes me out of the gym - avoiding time off exercise is the biggest challenge with getting older.
    - username135 4mo ago
      The time off from exercise is not a bad thing; even when forced due to holidays and being sick, life et al. As we age, we need more of that rest time. For those of us on the back 9, its critical to avoid those injuries because they set us back.
      - bluGill 4mo ago
        The only problem with time off is it breaks habits. a couple days off and suddenly you haven't done anything for months.
      - vidarh 4mo ago
        Rest time of a couple of days is good. I'm not talking about that. But more than a week and you'll typically need to deload to avoid DOMS. More than a few weeks and it will start taking significant time to work back up, and a lot of injuries happens because people try to rush that recovery and add even more time to that. If you regularly lose weeks at higher age, it quickly becomes tricky to avoid tipping over into lasting decline.
ryandvm 4mo ago
No joke. I go to the gym a couple times a week so that I'll maintain mobility and won't injure myself as I age - unfortunately 80% of my injuries come from the gym.
- pjsmith404 4mo ago
  If most of your injuries come from the gym, I recommend you get a trainer.
  - mlinhares 4mo ago
    hahah, so true. Also, there are multiple ways to do high intensity exercising that are very unlikely to injure you, like stationary bikes. High intensity only means going to a very high heart rate, you can do this in any way you like it.
- mrweasel 4mo ago
  80% of my injuries occurred while sleeping, which seems very weird.
  - busymom0 4mo ago
    I knew someone who dislocated her shoulder often while sleeping. If I remember right, she's dislocated it 17 times or some ridiculous number.
    - LoganDark 4mo ago
      Isn't it easier for it to happen again once it's happened at least once?
    - swasheck 4mo ago
      this happens to me quite frequently. i grew up playing years of baseball and my throwing shoulder is a bit loose as it is. combined with the way i fall asleep (on my stomach with my forearm under my pillow) i tend to dislocate or severely strain it pretty regularly
nathan_compton 4mo ago
There are plenty of high intensity activities with low risk of injury. Rowing and swimming come to mind. I think the bigger problem is that, as far as I can tell, very few people have the appropriate personality type for high intensity exercise. Most people seem to experience it just as pointless discomfort.
mzhaase 4mo ago
This is specifically cardio. High intensity interval training can be safe, for example, air bike, battle ropes, etc. High intensity running does have higher injury risk.
- SecretDreams 4mo ago
  Everyone just needs to play soccer and avoid the 50/50s if you're an adult that wants to be pain free the next day. I love me some adult coed soccer. And it can be very high intensity intermittently if you feel like it.
  - agsnu 4mo ago
    The study is about 70 year olds. I’m not sure it’s a good idea for the average 70 year old to be engaging in contact sports…
    - philk10 4mo ago
      they play walking soccer
  - philk10 4mo ago
    I avoided - or that was my intention until the game started - the 50/50s but my calf and hamstring still felt the pain the next day Totally worth it though
  - m3kw9 4mo ago
    Hurting the ego will likely make you not play the next game
    - chrisweekly 4mo ago
      The ego is the enemy. (I recommend the book w that title by Ryan Holiday)
netbioserror 4mo ago
Calisthenics is a really easy way to push intensity at basically 0 risk of injury. They're all compound and depending on the variation could require high reps, but between push ups, pull-ups, squats, their numerous variations, and accessory work, I would challenge anyone to actually injure themselves while also being able to push to true technical failure.
- torben-friis 4mo ago
  It is very possible to injure yourself with calisthenics. Shoulder impingement or tendinitis from pullups with too much intensity/bad form for example. Weight is weight.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
- wiredfool 4mo ago
  From my son's experience in calisthenics and looking around at the group he sometimes trains with, there are definitely a lot of overload/overuse injuries, at a range from just needing rest to bicep tears.
- mapotofu 4mo ago
  This is not good advice and please remove the “basically 0 risk of injury” wording. Mobility is a limiting factor and poor body positioning WILL result in injury. Barbells are safe, progressively overloadable, and learning to move them is a straight line is what most people need to do before a lot of calisthenics training. Most people can’t even do 1 pull up.
- superhuzza 4mo ago
  Lots of overuse injuries in calisthenics: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/OAJSM.S394044 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/OAJSM.S394044
- onemoresoop 4mo ago
  Poor form is possible with calisthenics and that leads to injuries or other problems.
busymom0 4mo ago
In my experience, there's a middle ground. Don't go for 1 to 3 rep maxes. Go for 4-6 rep maxes for a set and then follow it by set to failure in the 8-12 rep range. That gives a good mix of both intensity and volume while still reducing risks of injury as the weights are heavy but not crazy heavy to compromise form.
vmg12 4mo ago
You just need to build back up to high intensity training over time by consistently exercising and pushing yourself. Injury comes from pushing yourself too hard too soon. Unless you are approaching 50 (and even then) you can recover most of your fitness from your early 20s.
alistairSH 4mo ago
High intensity does border on leading to injury Where are you getting this? The study was about various intensities of cardio - I didn't see it noted, but I'm guessing the high- and medium-intensity groups were on a treadmill, elliptical, or similar. Pretty small chance of injury for the durations they mention, especially as the subjects were monitored while exercising. And I'm not really surprised by the study - building lean muscle mass takes resistance training, which wasn't part of the study. The study results appear to be inline with what was common knowledge/experience. And if you're injuring yourself regularly during weight training or other gym activities, I'd suggest you might hire a good coach/trainer for guidance and programming, because that shouldn't happen either.
- yodsanklai 4mo ago
  > And if you're injuring yourself regularly during weight training or other gym activities, I'd suggest you might hire a good coach/trainer for guidance and programming, because that shouldn't happen either. After a certain age, it's difficult to train somewhat intensely without risking injury. You can always find some exercises that work and maintain a physical activity, but this may not be enough to maintain your muscle mass or your stamina.
  - alistairSH 4mo ago
    Sure, thus the "find a trainer" suggestion. :shrug: You aren't wrong, but for somebody who has been active and healthy, intense exercise deep into their 60s should be possible.
    - yodsanklai 4mo ago
      > Sure, thus the "find a trainer" suggestion Not sure a trainer is a silver bullet. After 50, it gets increasingly harder to improve as we become more and more injury-prone and start developing chronic issues. Staying active and fit should be reachable for most, but high-intensity or competitive sports become a privilege for those with good genetics. Most of us switch to low-impact sports such as cycling, swimming, hiking, bodyweight training and so on...
Etheryte 4mo ago
There is no correlation between exercise intensity and likelihood of injury, this is nonsense. You could e.g. just as well make one wrong move when going for a one rep max.
- robotresearcher 4mo ago
  Going for one rep max is intense. If it weren't, you could get a better max.
  - Etheryte 4mo ago
    That's not what exercise intensity means, clearly you're not even remotely familiar with the domain.
    - robotresearcher 4mo ago
      In the context of weight lifting, or neuromuscular demand, a one rep max is very high intensity exercise. In the context of metabolic demand, it is not. Your tone is very aggressive. Not necessary.

baxtr 4mo ago

Really depends on how you define high-intensity. To build muscle, you need to push yourself to a limit. You can reduce the weight and increase the repetitions. This approach is just as effective and lowers the risk of injury.

kakacik 4mo ago
This is what I do. When I was beginning with weight training, I followed other's recommendations back then and pushed hard. Had quite often minor issues or injuries in the joints which set me back for weeks or even months, my tendons seem to be my weak spot and it does get worse with age, both limits and recovery. Lowered the load, increased repetitions and basically nothing for a decade. I can still go almost to the failure, I don't even want to reach it since I don't care about that extra bit. Squats or deadlifts are hard even when not at limits, one feels used body parts for a day or two. I still add cardio on top of that, its just basic logic of moving around a lot is very good for the body, even if effects are not immediately obvious.
- lowdude 4mo ago
  So, how many reps did you start with and how many do you do nowadays?
  - kakacik 4mo ago
    Starting is a bit hazy, it was 15 years ago. I gradually got to cca 100kg deadlifts (maybe 5-6 reps each set) and maybe 70kg squats of similar reps/sets. These days its more about 15 reps, still 3 sets (plus one just 20kg barbel warmup). When I feel like I could do more, i add 3 or 5 reps, and/or do things slower, especially the lowering part. Weight wise its cca 60kg deadlifts, 50kg squats. I feel like I could do more, but with worse form and thats not a good idea. There are similar numbers for bench presses, dumbbell curls and few other exercises I sometimes add to mix. I was never bodybuilder and never looked accordingly but I didn't care, any strong-enough body is attractive to females, good confidence is present and connection to one's body is very good. It was always just training for actual stuff - long hikes, climbing, ski touring etc. Now with kids and after quite brutal paragliding accident that left me wheelchair-bound for few weeks, walked after 6 months and have some permanent changes in calcaneus, I am happy with anything and above is good enough for me, just need to sustain it.
- iamacyborg 4mo ago
  > Squats or deadlifts are hard even when not at limits, one feels used body parts for a day or two. That’s just regular ‘ol DOMS and not a problem. Tendons tend to respond well to both heavy load or high reps, albeit adaptation in either case is very slow.
- poilcn 4mo ago
  Well, your body knows nothing about number of reps or the weights. You can also do your reps slower.
criddell 4mo ago
Maybe with older adults the baseline goal should be to merely maintain or slow the loss of the muscle, mobility, and cardiovascular capacity they already have? It's not realistic for a 50 year old to think they could build muscle year-after-year for the next 30 years.
- vidarh 4mo ago
  For the next 30 years, probably not, but mostly because you can get really strong really quickly, as most adults are really weak. It's not that unusual for people to pick up e.g. powerlifting past 50 and still get to levels well beyond what most younger adults can lift. I'm 51, and recently back into powerlifting after many years out of it, and I certainly expect to build back muscle and improving week over week for many years before I can't stem the decline any more, as long as avoid injury or health issues that takes me out of the gym - avoiding time off exercise is the biggest challenge with getting older.
  - username135 4mo ago
    The time off from exercise is not a bad thing; even when forced due to holidays and being sick, life et al. As we age, we need more of that rest time. For those of us on the back 9, its critical to avoid those injuries because they set us back.
    - bluGill 4mo ago
      The only problem with time off is it breaks habits. a couple days off and suddenly you haven't done anything for months.
    - vidarh 4mo ago
      Rest time of a couple of days is good. I'm not talking about that. But more than a week and you'll typically need to deload to avoid DOMS. More than a few weeks and it will start taking significant time to work back up, and a lot of injuries happens because people try to rush that recovery and add even more time to that. If you regularly lose weeks at higher age, it quickly becomes tricky to avoid tipping over into lasting decline.

ryandvm 4mo ago

No joke. I go to the gym a couple times a week so that I'll maintain mobility and won't injure myself as I age - unfortunately 80% of my injuries come from the gym.

pjsmith404 4mo ago
If most of your injuries come from the gym, I recommend you get a trainer.
- mlinhares 4mo ago
  hahah, so true. Also, there are multiple ways to do high intensity exercising that are very unlikely to injure you, like stationary bikes. High intensity only means going to a very high heart rate, you can do this in any way you like it.
mrweasel 4mo ago
80% of my injuries occurred while sleeping, which seems very weird.
- busymom0 4mo ago
  I knew someone who dislocated her shoulder often while sleeping. If I remember right, she's dislocated it 17 times or some ridiculous number.
  - LoganDark 4mo ago
    Isn't it easier for it to happen again once it's happened at least once?
  - swasheck 4mo ago
    this happens to me quite frequently. i grew up playing years of baseball and my throwing shoulder is a bit loose as it is. combined with the way i fall asleep (on my stomach with my forearm under my pillow) i tend to dislocate or severely strain it pretty regularly

nathan_compton 4mo ago

There are plenty of high intensity activities with low risk of injury. Rowing and swimming come to mind. I think the bigger problem is that, as far as I can tell, very few people have the appropriate personality type for high intensity exercise. Most people seem to experience it just as pointless discomfort.

mzhaase 4mo ago

This is specifically cardio. High intensity interval training can be safe, for example, air bike, battle ropes, etc. High intensity running does have higher injury risk.

SecretDreams 4mo ago
Everyone just needs to play soccer and avoid the 50/50s if you're an adult that wants to be pain free the next day. I love me some adult coed soccer. And it can be very high intensity intermittently if you feel like it.
- agsnu 4mo ago
  The study is about 70 year olds. I’m not sure it’s a good idea for the average 70 year old to be engaging in contact sports…
  - philk10 4mo ago
    they play walking soccer
- philk10 4mo ago
  I avoided - or that was my intention until the game started - the 50/50s but my calf and hamstring still felt the pain the next day Totally worth it though
- m3kw9 4mo ago
  Hurting the ego will likely make you not play the next game
  - chrisweekly 4mo ago
    The ego is the enemy. (I recommend the book w that title by Ryan Holiday)

netbioserror 4mo ago

Calisthenics is a really easy way to push intensity at basically 0 risk of injury. They're all compound and depending on the variation could require high reps, but between push ups, pull-ups, squats, their numerous variations, and accessory work, I would challenge anyone to actually injure themselves while also being able to push to true technical failure.

torben-friis 4mo ago
It is very possible to injure yourself with calisthenics. Shoulder impingement or tendinitis from pullups with too much intensity/bad form for example. Weight is weight.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
wiredfool 4mo ago
From my son's experience in calisthenics and looking around at the group he sometimes trains with, there are definitely a lot of overload/overuse injuries, at a range from just needing rest to bicep tears.
mapotofu 4mo ago
This is not good advice and please remove the “basically 0 risk of injury” wording. Mobility is a limiting factor and poor body positioning WILL result in injury. Barbells are safe, progressively overloadable, and learning to move them is a straight line is what most people need to do before a lot of calisthenics training. Most people can’t even do 1 pull up.
superhuzza 4mo ago
Lots of overuse injuries in calisthenics: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/OAJSM.S394044 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/OAJSM.S394044
onemoresoop 4mo ago
Poor form is possible with calisthenics and that leads to injuries or other problems.

busymom0 4mo ago

In my experience, there's a middle ground. Don't go for 1 to 3 rep maxes. Go for 4-6 rep maxes for a set and then follow it by set to failure in the 8-12 rep range. That gives a good mix of both intensity and volume while still reducing risks of injury as the weights are heavy but not crazy heavy to compromise form.

vmg12 4mo ago

You just need to build back up to high intensity training over time by consistently exercising and pushing yourself. Injury comes from pushing yourself too hard too soon. Unless you are approaching 50 (and even then) you can recover most of your fitness from your early 20s.

alistairSH 4mo ago

High intensity does border on leading to injury Where are you getting this? The study was about various intensities of cardio - I didn't see it noted, but I'm guessing the high- and medium-intensity groups were on a treadmill, elliptical, or similar. Pretty small chance of injury for the durations they mention, especially as the subjects were monitored while exercising. And I'm not really surprised by the study - building lean muscle mass takes resistance training, which wasn't part of the study. The study results appear to be inline with what was common knowledge/experience. And if you're injuring yourself regularly during weight training or other gym activities, I'd suggest you might hire a good coach/trainer for guidance and programming, because that shouldn't happen either.

yodsanklai 4mo ago
> And if you're injuring yourself regularly during weight training or other gym activities, I'd suggest you might hire a good coach/trainer for guidance and programming, because that shouldn't happen either. After a certain age, it's difficult to train somewhat intensely without risking injury. You can always find some exercises that work and maintain a physical activity, but this may not be enough to maintain your muscle mass or your stamina.
- alistairSH 4mo ago
  Sure, thus the "find a trainer" suggestion. :shrug: You aren't wrong, but for somebody who has been active and healthy, intense exercise deep into their 60s should be possible.
  - yodsanklai 4mo ago
    > Sure, thus the "find a trainer" suggestion Not sure a trainer is a silver bullet. After 50, it gets increasingly harder to improve as we become more and more injury-prone and start developing chronic issues. Staying active and fit should be reachable for most, but high-intensity or competitive sports become a privilege for those with good genetics. Most of us switch to low-impact sports such as cycling, swimming, hiking, bodyweight training and so on...

Etheryte 4mo ago

There is no correlation between exercise intensity and likelihood of injury, this is nonsense. You could e.g. just as well make one wrong move when going for a one rep max.

robotresearcher 4mo ago
Going for one rep max is intense. If it weren't, you could get a better max.
- Etheryte 4mo ago
  That's not what exercise intensity means, clearly you're not even remotely familiar with the domain.
  - robotresearcher 4mo ago
    In the context of weight lifting, or neuromuscular demand, a one rep max is very high intensity exercise. In the context of metabolic demand, it is not. Your tone is very aggressive. Not necessary.