7 ms·

This appears to me like a solution in search of a problem, like many others before it...the quote below seems relevant to this effort. "Those who do not unders

This appears to me like a solution in search of a problem, like many others before it...the quote below seems relevant to this effort. "Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." ~Henry Spencer

forgot_old_user 3mo ago
that seems a little harsh. I think there is a real usability gap which this takes a crack at. Some ideas like using viewing a linux dir over _ssh_ using native UI components.. seem cool. I do agree, some of these do seem like they have already been solved in other ways (like an sshfs mount).
- shakna 3mo ago
  That is exactly what X was designed to do. And part of why X is considered insecure today.
- advael 3mo ago
  I mean, I do this all the time via sshfs. I don't think these tools or ideas are bad, they just mostly aren't new, the innovation is maybe a particular ux or a particular bundle of toys?
Modified3019 3mo ago
> "Those who do not understand Unix Funny enough, that right there is the actual fundamental problem here. I am reminded of a post or blog long ago that talked about programmable thermostats and how awful they are for most people to use despite how powerfully in the weeds one can get with them. Basically summarizing the issue as something like “People do not want to learn your arcane system, they just want the benefit it’s advertising”. A good UI knows how to minimize that gap.
- XorNot 3mo ago
  I mean that's true but the number of UIs which simply don't add access to necessary features in the name of "simplicity" is enormous. The poster child of this is the Microsoft Office ribbon.
- red-iron-pine 3mo ago
  as someone with a fancy IoT thermostat... yeah. I want to set the temp. Maybe set a schedule and a timer. Once I have to start navigating multiple, deep menues with a thermostat I stop giving a shit. I miss old VCRs that had 8 buttons and only those 8 functions
hedgehog 3mo ago
This resembles Plan9 more than UNIX. I wouldn't put UNIX up on a pedestal.
- projektfu 3mo ago
  Plan9 is funny because it's what UNIX might look like if the people working on UNIX understood UNIX, i.e. everything is a file and simple primitives are composed into complex systems.
  - hedgehog 3mo ago
    They had the benefit of hindsight and bigger hardware, but UNIX got too popular and now we're struggling to move past it. It would have been interesting to see what the fourth try would be like (though looking at Go I would probably not completely like it).
  - lstodd 3mo ago
    yea, as sibling said. p9 was not possible on pdp11. what was possible there was .. v7 and 2bsd. see https://github.com/felipenlunkes/run-ancient-unix https://github.com/felipenlunkes/run-ancient-unix p9 was done when "current state of unix" was already fixed in form of aix, sysv and bsds, it suffered the same fate as say beos.
    - fulafel 3mo ago
      BeOS was marketed, there was an attempt. But it was a harder sell. Plan 9 on the other hand was was kept as a research project only and was restrictively licensed in the 90s when it was actively developed.
  - red-iron-pine 3mo ago
    i mean they did understand unix, both in that they created it, and created plan9 to be closer to their original vision. but unix got widely adopted and you go with what sells not blue-sky woulda-coulda
whatever1 3mo ago
No. It’s just that now more people are using Linux the more the ux decisions that were made 40 years ago will be questioned. Almost all dev facing machines have ssh server installed and accessible. Why ssh terminal has to look like character-only trash from 1960s? Why a TUI is the best thing we pipe through ssh? Why I cannot watch a 4k movie in the terminal or browse the web using pinch to zoom ?
- john01dav 3mo ago
  > Why a TUI is the best thing we pipe through ssh? `ssh -XC` (look up SSH X forwarding). You can also easily tunnel remote desktop over ssh. > Why I cannot watch a 4k movie in the terminal or browse the web using pinch to zoom ? Kitty, sixel, and iterm2
  - fragmede 3mo ago
    It's not 4k, but ssh to funky.nondeterministic.computer if you're using a modern* terminal emulator program. (aka ghostty)
- 1bpp 3mo ago
  A terminal UI is the best thing we pipe through SSH because it's the tool we built specifically for piping a terminal UI. Abandoning Xorg has admittedly made streaming a GUI over SSH less simple, but still not impossible, and you can forward whatever data you want (a VLC stream of a 4k movie) with tunneling. I do agree that new Linux users who have different needs from their computers might cause some incentive to change some of these 40 year old UX decisions. We don't really have a modern, capable remote desktop solution at least on par with RDP.
- PalmPilotProMax 3mo ago
  >character-only trash from 1960s You take that back! >Why a TUI is the best thing we pipe through ssh? Why I cannot watch a 4k movie in the terminal or browse the web using pinch to zoom? The old magick speak of X forwarding. The newer wizards now use waypipe.
- pdntspa 3mo ago
hughw 3mo ago
I hired a programmer and after giving him his Linux laptop let him set up a few things. A couple hours later he asked me where he could get PuTTY for it, and I recognized a huge gap in my interview coverage.
- syntheticnature 3mo ago
  Indeed, a new hire should be able to use Google to find https://puttygen.com/download-putty#Download_PuTTY_on_Linux_and_Installation_Guide https://puttygen.com/download-putty#Download_PuTTY_on_Linux_... in short order evil grin
  - hughw 3mo ago
    multiple issues right
  - petee 3mo ago
    https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ puttygen.com looks super fishy, the disclaimer: > Puttygen software is not created, nor supported by Puttygen.com. The program has been tested and is believed to be safe. [...] The use of Puttygen through Puttygen.com is done at your own discretion and risk Edit: or is that the evil grin?
  - glitchc 3mo ago
    apt install putty seems... useful? Don't get it.
    - YoshiRulz 3mo ago
      PuTTY is (or was, in the years before WSL) the go-to SSH client for Windows. If you're a Windows user getting onboarded at a job / uni class which uses Linux machines, installing it is the first thing you'd be told. The laptop in question would obviously have a terminal emulator and SSH client pre-installed, but a Windows user wouldn't think to look for them, and they might not even know that SSH exists outside of PuTTY or that it's a separate concept to the terminal.
aslihana 3mo ago
I think this is a `There’s no such thing as bad publicity`
tway235 3mo ago
this kind of dismissive comments is why many apps have an awful usability. If someone thinks a web interface would be easier than a text terminal, there's at least one customer in need for a product (which either doesn't exist or they could not "googlify") - it's also why I welcome AI generating apps on the fly, "replacing" engineers who "know better" ;)
- kjkjadksj 3mo ago
  Why learn to do anything?
  - tway235 3mo ago
    compilers, IDE, syntax highlighting too, everyone should learn assembly, ed, and stick to b&w
- jcelerier 3mo ago
  > there's at least one customer in need for a product just because whales exist does not mean feeding them is a goal to aim for as a society. 99.9% of technology could disappear tomorrow and life would become better.
  - tway235 3mo ago
    hyperbole: a lot of tech we give for granted today, started as niche products for "whales" like government agencies, so I suppose computers and Internet shouldn't exist and life would be better
    - jcelerier 3mo ago
      > computers and Internet shouldn't exist and life would be better I don't think that's remotely controversial
walrus01 3mo ago
It's like they decided to reinvent webmin
protocolture 3mo ago
>"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." ~Henry Spencer I need something like this for network management tools.
virajk_31 3mo ago
UNIX/GNU/LINUX is not TUI. Period.
egeozcan 3mo ago
That quote does not have anything against GUIs, does it? Or did you mean it in another way?

forgot_old_user 3mo ago

that seems a little harsh. I think there is a real usability gap which this takes a crack at. Some ideas like using viewing a linux dir over _ssh_ using native UI components.. seem cool. I do agree, some of these do seem like they have already been solved in other ways (like an sshfs mount).

shakna 3mo ago
That is exactly what X was designed to do. And part of why X is considered insecure today.
advael 3mo ago
I mean, I do this all the time via sshfs. I don't think these tools or ideas are bad, they just mostly aren't new, the innovation is maybe a particular ux or a particular bundle of toys?

Modified3019 3mo ago

> "Those who do not understand Unix Funny enough, that right there is the actual fundamental problem here. I am reminded of a post or blog long ago that talked about programmable thermostats and how awful they are for most people to use despite how powerfully in the weeds one can get with them. Basically summarizing the issue as something like “People do not want to learn your arcane system, they just want the benefit it’s advertising”. A good UI knows how to minimize that gap.

XorNot 3mo ago
I mean that's true but the number of UIs which simply don't add access to necessary features in the name of "simplicity" is enormous. The poster child of this is the Microsoft Office ribbon.
red-iron-pine 3mo ago
as someone with a fancy IoT thermostat... yeah. I want to set the temp. Maybe set a schedule and a timer. Once I have to start navigating multiple, deep menues with a thermostat I stop giving a shit. I miss old VCRs that had 8 buttons and only those 8 functions

hedgehog 3mo ago

This resembles Plan9 more than UNIX. I wouldn't put UNIX up on a pedestal.

projektfu 3mo ago
Plan9 is funny because it's what UNIX might look like if the people working on UNIX understood UNIX, i.e. everything is a file and simple primitives are composed into complex systems.
- hedgehog 3mo ago
  They had the benefit of hindsight and bigger hardware, but UNIX got too popular and now we're struggling to move past it. It would have been interesting to see what the fourth try would be like (though looking at Go I would probably not completely like it).
- lstodd 3mo ago
  yea, as sibling said. p9 was not possible on pdp11. what was possible there was .. v7 and 2bsd. see https://github.com/felipenlunkes/run-ancient-unix https://github.com/felipenlunkes/run-ancient-unix p9 was done when "current state of unix" was already fixed in form of aix, sysv and bsds, it suffered the same fate as say beos.
  - fulafel 3mo ago
    BeOS was marketed, there was an attempt. But it was a harder sell. Plan 9 on the other hand was was kept as a research project only and was restrictively licensed in the 90s when it was actively developed.
- red-iron-pine 3mo ago
  i mean they did understand unix, both in that they created it, and created plan9 to be closer to their original vision. but unix got widely adopted and you go with what sells not blue-sky woulda-coulda

whatever1 3mo ago

No. It’s just that now more people are using Linux the more the ux decisions that were made 40 years ago will be questioned. Almost all dev facing machines have ssh server installed and accessible. Why ssh terminal has to look like character-only trash from 1960s? Why a TUI is the best thing we pipe through ssh? Why I cannot watch a 4k movie in the terminal or browse the web using pinch to zoom ?

john01dav 3mo ago
> Why a TUI is the best thing we pipe through ssh? `ssh -XC` (look up SSH X forwarding). You can also easily tunnel remote desktop over ssh. > Why I cannot watch a 4k movie in the terminal or browse the web using pinch to zoom ? Kitty, sixel, and iterm2
- fragmede 3mo ago
  It's not 4k, but ssh to funky.nondeterministic.computer if you're using a modern* terminal emulator program. (aka ghostty)
1bpp 3mo ago
A terminal UI is the best thing we pipe through SSH because it's the tool we built specifically for piping a terminal UI. Abandoning Xorg has admittedly made streaming a GUI over SSH less simple, but still not impossible, and you can forward whatever data you want (a VLC stream of a 4k movie) with tunneling. I do agree that new Linux users who have different needs from their computers might cause some incentive to change some of these 40 year old UX decisions. We don't really have a modern, capable remote desktop solution at least on par with RDP.
PalmPilotProMax 3mo ago
>character-only trash from 1960s You take that back! >Why a TUI is the best thing we pipe through ssh? Why I cannot watch a 4k movie in the terminal or browse the web using pinch to zoom? The old magick speak of X forwarding. The newer wizards now use waypipe.
pdntspa 3mo ago

hughw 3mo ago

I hired a programmer and after giving him his Linux laptop let him set up a few things. A couple hours later he asked me where he could get PuTTY for it, and I recognized a huge gap in my interview coverage.

syntheticnature 3mo ago
Indeed, a new hire should be able to use Google to find https://puttygen.com/download-putty#Download_PuTTY_on_Linux_and_Installation_Guide https://puttygen.com/download-putty#Download_PuTTY_on_Linux_... in short order evil grin
- hughw 3mo ago
  multiple issues right
- petee 3mo ago
  https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ puttygen.com looks super fishy, the disclaimer: > Puttygen software is not created, nor supported by Puttygen.com. The program has been tested and is believed to be safe. [...] The use of Puttygen through Puttygen.com is done at your own discretion and risk Edit: or is that the evil grin?
- glitchc 3mo ago
  apt install putty seems... useful? Don't get it.
  - YoshiRulz 3mo ago
    PuTTY is (or was, in the years before WSL) the go-to SSH client for Windows. If you're a Windows user getting onboarded at a job / uni class which uses Linux machines, installing it is the first thing you'd be told. The laptop in question would obviously have a terminal emulator and SSH client pre-installed, but a Windows user wouldn't think to look for them, and they might not even know that SSH exists outside of PuTTY or that it's a separate concept to the terminal.

aslihana 3mo ago

I think this is a `There’s no such thing as bad publicity`

tway235 3mo ago

this kind of dismissive comments is why many apps have an awful usability. If someone thinks a web interface would be easier than a text terminal, there's at least one customer in need for a product (which either doesn't exist or they could not "googlify") - it's also why I welcome AI generating apps on the fly, "replacing" engineers who "know better" ;)

kjkjadksj 3mo ago
Why learn to do anything?
- tway235 3mo ago
  compilers, IDE, syntax highlighting too, everyone should learn assembly, ed, and stick to b&w
jcelerier 3mo ago
> there's at least one customer in need for a product just because whales exist does not mean feeding them is a goal to aim for as a society. 99.9% of technology could disappear tomorrow and life would become better.
- tway235 3mo ago
  hyperbole: a lot of tech we give for granted today, started as niche products for "whales" like government agencies, so I suppose computers and Internet shouldn't exist and life would be better
  - jcelerier 3mo ago
    > computers and Internet shouldn't exist and life would be better I don't think that's remotely controversial

walrus01 3mo ago

It's like they decided to reinvent webmin

protocolture 3mo ago

>"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." ~Henry Spencer I need something like this for network management tools.

virajk_31 3mo ago

UNIX/GNU/LINUX is not TUI. Period.

egeozcan 3mo ago

That quote does not have anything against GUIs, does it? Or did you mean it in another way?