6 ms·

If it is reasonable to have your privacy in a public place, does this mean that products like Flock which indiscriminately violate your privacy would now requir

If it is reasonable to have your privacy in a public place, does this mean that products like Flock which indiscriminately violate your privacy would now require a warrant for law enforcement to access (currently they do not)?

petcat 3mo ago
> If it is reasonable to have your privacy in a public place I don't think it's reasonable to have privacy in a public place. All other arguments follow from there. What do you think should be "private" when you step outside your home?
- TheJoeMan 3mo ago
  If I run into someone at the grocery store, I can remember "oh I saw them yesterday" if the Police interview me. If I start writing down/logging every time I saw that person at the grocery store and plotting it out, I would consider that "crossing the line". A Flock camera that receives BOLO's for known-criminals and immediately flags captures in real-time is different than tracking every person going everywhere with a history.
  - thenewnewguy 3mo ago
    What if the grocery store has a security camera pointed at the door that records 24/7? Should they not be allowed to do that?
    - JoshTriplett 3mo ago
      I think they should be allowed to point it at places inside their store, with prominent disclosure to people entering. I don't think they should be allowed to point it at the public sidewalk.
      - dylan604 3mo ago
        So what if they mount inside pointing outside?
        JoshTriplett 3mo ago
        Was "I don't think they should be allowed to" ambiguous?
        dylan604 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        JoshTriplett 3mo ago
        Many jurisdictions already have laws about where you can point cameras "in your own place", including when they point out of your place. For instance, you are already not allowed to point a camera out your window at someone else's home, or into their backyard. You also can't legally record audio in most places. We should have more such restrictions on surveillance as the pervasive use of surveillance has become more of a threat.
        anigbrowl 3mo ago
        Baitposting followed by rudeness and aggression makes for a poor discussion.
        dylan604 3mo ago
        It wasn't bait posting at all. It was a question for critical thinking. The rude was started with the response to that question. If you think you can tell me what I can do in my own place, you'll get a rude response as well. Where do you get off telling me what I can/cannot do in my private place?
        anigbrowl 3mo ago
    - sixothree 3mo ago
      Try walking around a grocery store with your phone and take a picture of every person you pass. See how they react. That's the expectation people have for privacy.
      - ryandrake 3mo ago
        Reminds me of the "Surveillance Camera Man" project[1] from a while back, where a guy went around silently filming people in public. People didn't like it and some responded aggressively, even though those same people probably thought nothing of the numerous actual surveillance cameras pointing at them all the time. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46302860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46302860
        MintPaw 3mo ago
        There's a whole category of video content called "First Amendment Audits" where people film with big cameras in public and farm people random, and often quite hostile, reactions.
    - simoncion 3mo ago
      > Should they not be allowed to do that? If that camera system is closed-circuit and its data is restricted to the premises they should be permitted to do that. If the data from that camera system [0] can be removed from the premises by anything less than a search warrant or court order, then no, they should not be permitted to do that. I know this isn't how the relevant laws work now, but they haven't been adequately updated to account for radical changes in the ability for companies to perform mass surveillance. [0] ...whether raw or "processed" by -say- a "customer analytics" software... [1] [1] Want a count of the day's customers? Check register receipts. Want to know what displays are most popular? Ask your employees, or employ someone to take notes. etc, etc, etc.
- soulofmischief 3mo ago
  I would like to visit the park without several large cameras staring me down at every junction now. I would like to go to various establishments, or maybe even political meetups, without being profiled by insurance agents and law enforcement officers. Especially now that it seems simply attending a political meeting could land me decades in prison. I would, as the US Supreme Court just reaffirmed is my right, not like to have my location continuously tracked immediately upon leaving my home via such a camera network. Otherwise this entire ruling is just subverted by adding a few extra steps.
- fusslo 3mo ago
  > I don't think it's reasonable to have privacy in a public place. All other arguments follow from there. - United states v Jones - Carpenter v United States - florida v jardines - kyllo v united states All affirm some level of expectation of privacy in public. ALPR's, facial recognition, drone surveillance are going to get challenged at some point. GORSUCH in this opinion pontificated on Katz v United States. Highly recommend reading his opinion
- tsimionescu 3mo ago
  Would you be happy with a public "petcat tracker" site that published your personal location and image 24/7 whenever you are out in public, from data collected from Flock and other similar products? If you think that would cross a line, you do have some expectation of privacy even in a public place.
  - Terr_ 3mo ago
    Right: This kind of law is supposed to conform to the common expectation, not dictate it! We all might expect someone could take a photo of us walking down the sidewalk, but that's not the same as "expecting" to be followed by a virtual (or even literal) drone-swarm that constantly catalogues our every movement cross-referenced to potential interactions with everyone else.
- anigbrowl 3mo ago
  I do. It's not the legal norm in the US, but in many countries you are still considered to have a right of privacy when you are outside your home. In Japan, for example, you can be sued for publishing photographs or video of street scenes without either securing permission or redacting the faces of passers-by.
  - petcat 3mo ago
    > but in many countries Which countries?
    - anigbrowl 3mo ago
      Japan, for example. You can easily look up which other countries strictly enforce personality rights in public spaces and see for yourself, I'm not here to service you.
- sixothree 3mo ago
  You're suggesting people can look through your briefcase, purse, backpack without a warrant in a public place. > What do you think should be "private" when you step outside your home? I believe my papers and effects should NOT be subject to unreasonable searches.
- deathanatos 3mo ago
  The cases covered under the 4A: > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "persons", "papers" and "effects"; just because I am in public does not give the police carte blanche to search me.
- rileymat2 3mo ago
  We do have semiprivate places in public, for example bathrooms, based on an expectation of privacy. There is no reason that expectation cannot be changed or extended in ways.
derektank 3mo ago
Where does the ruling discuss public places? The article quotes the ruling as saying, “An individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy in records about his cell phone’s location.” I don’t think a ruling about private records held by a private entity like google or a phone company naturally extends to surveillance of public places.
- seplox 3mo ago
  > I don’t think a ruling about private records held by a private entity like google or a phone company naturally extends to surveillance of public places. Even when the surveillance is being conducted by a private entity? A private entity that's selling access to its private records of the comings and goings of a sizeable chunk of the population to police who are buying specifically because it would be a 4th Amendment violation for them to collect the data themselves? If it's reasonable for we consumers, who know that cell networks and phone makers are collecting our data, to expect privacy, then it's reasonable to extend that same expectation to operators of ALPR and related techs. There's no opt-out, after all. We can't reject the terms of service.
  - anigbrowl 3mo ago
    I suspect the argument against that would be that you contract with the cell service provider and so have a colorable interest as a party to said contract. In contrast you have no such contractual relationship with Flock, and if your government contracted with them on your behalf your remedy is to vote harder.
    - seplox 3mo ago
      According to the ruling, the exposure of your location history is the automatic price of conventional cell-phone usage—which, just as Carpenter noted, is a "pervasive and insistent part of daily life." If we can't step out of our houses or drive to the doctor without that fact getting placed into a searchable database, then I'd argue that it qualifies as a "pervasive and insistent part of daily life."

petcat 3mo ago

> If it is reasonable to have your privacy in a public place I don't think it's reasonable to have privacy in a public place. All other arguments follow from there. What do you think should be "private" when you step outside your home?

TheJoeMan 3mo ago
If I run into someone at the grocery store, I can remember "oh I saw them yesterday" if the Police interview me. If I start writing down/logging every time I saw that person at the grocery store and plotting it out, I would consider that "crossing the line". A Flock camera that receives BOLO's for known-criminals and immediately flags captures in real-time is different than tracking every person going everywhere with a history.
- thenewnewguy 3mo ago
  What if the grocery store has a security camera pointed at the door that records 24/7? Should they not be allowed to do that?
  - JoshTriplett 3mo ago
    I think they should be allowed to point it at places inside their store, with prominent disclosure to people entering. I don't think they should be allowed to point it at the public sidewalk.
    - dylan604 3mo ago
      So what if they mount inside pointing outside?
      - JoshTriplett 3mo ago
        Was "I don't think they should be allowed to" ambiguous?
        dylan604 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        JoshTriplett 3mo ago
        Many jurisdictions already have laws about where you can point cameras "in your own place", including when they point out of your place. For instance, you are already not allowed to point a camera out your window at someone else's home, or into their backyard. You also can't legally record audio in most places. We should have more such restrictions on surveillance as the pervasive use of surveillance has become more of a threat.
        anigbrowl 3mo ago
        Baitposting followed by rudeness and aggression makes for a poor discussion.
        dylan604 3mo ago
        It wasn't bait posting at all. It was a question for critical thinking. The rude was started with the response to that question. If you think you can tell me what I can do in my own place, you'll get a rude response as well. Where do you get off telling me what I can/cannot do in my private place?
        anigbrowl 3mo ago
  - sixothree 3mo ago
    Try walking around a grocery store with your phone and take a picture of every person you pass. See how they react. That's the expectation people have for privacy.
    - ryandrake 3mo ago
      Reminds me of the "Surveillance Camera Man" project[1] from a while back, where a guy went around silently filming people in public. People didn't like it and some responded aggressively, even though those same people probably thought nothing of the numerous actual surveillance cameras pointing at them all the time. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46302860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46302860
      - MintPaw 3mo ago
        There's a whole category of video content called "First Amendment Audits" where people film with big cameras in public and farm people random, and often quite hostile, reactions.
  - simoncion 3mo ago
    > Should they not be allowed to do that? If that camera system is closed-circuit and its data is restricted to the premises they should be permitted to do that. If the data from that camera system [0] can be removed from the premises by anything less than a search warrant or court order, then no, they should not be permitted to do that. I know this isn't how the relevant laws work now, but they haven't been adequately updated to account for radical changes in the ability for companies to perform mass surveillance. [0] ...whether raw or "processed" by -say- a "customer analytics" software... [1] [1] Want a count of the day's customers? Check register receipts. Want to know what displays are most popular? Ask your employees, or employ someone to take notes. etc, etc, etc.
soulofmischief 3mo ago
I would like to visit the park without several large cameras staring me down at every junction now. I would like to go to various establishments, or maybe even political meetups, without being profiled by insurance agents and law enforcement officers. Especially now that it seems simply attending a political meeting could land me decades in prison. I would, as the US Supreme Court just reaffirmed is my right, not like to have my location continuously tracked immediately upon leaving my home via such a camera network. Otherwise this entire ruling is just subverted by adding a few extra steps.
fusslo 3mo ago
> I don't think it's reasonable to have privacy in a public place. All other arguments follow from there. - United states v Jones - Carpenter v United States - florida v jardines - kyllo v united states All affirm some level of expectation of privacy in public. ALPR's, facial recognition, drone surveillance are going to get challenged at some point. GORSUCH in this opinion pontificated on Katz v United States. Highly recommend reading his opinion
tsimionescu 3mo ago
Would you be happy with a public "petcat tracker" site that published your personal location and image 24/7 whenever you are out in public, from data collected from Flock and other similar products? If you think that would cross a line, you do have some expectation of privacy even in a public place.
- Terr_ 3mo ago
  Right: This kind of law is supposed to conform to the common expectation, not dictate it! We all might expect someone could take a photo of us walking down the sidewalk, but that's not the same as "expecting" to be followed by a virtual (or even literal) drone-swarm that constantly catalogues our every movement cross-referenced to potential interactions with everyone else.
anigbrowl 3mo ago
I do. It's not the legal norm in the US, but in many countries you are still considered to have a right of privacy when you are outside your home. In Japan, for example, you can be sued for publishing photographs or video of street scenes without either securing permission or redacting the faces of passers-by.
- petcat 3mo ago
  > but in many countries Which countries?
  - anigbrowl 3mo ago
    Japan, for example. You can easily look up which other countries strictly enforce personality rights in public spaces and see for yourself, I'm not here to service you.
sixothree 3mo ago
You're suggesting people can look through your briefcase, purse, backpack without a warrant in a public place. > What do you think should be "private" when you step outside your home? I believe my papers and effects should NOT be subject to unreasonable searches.
deathanatos 3mo ago
The cases covered under the 4A: > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "persons", "papers" and "effects"; just because I am in public does not give the police carte blanche to search me.
rileymat2 3mo ago
We do have semiprivate places in public, for example bathrooms, based on an expectation of privacy. There is no reason that expectation cannot be changed or extended in ways.

derektank 3mo ago

Where does the ruling discuss public places? The article quotes the ruling as saying, “An individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy in records about his cell phone’s location.” I don’t think a ruling about private records held by a private entity like google or a phone company naturally extends to surveillance of public places.

seplox 3mo ago
> I don’t think a ruling about private records held by a private entity like google or a phone company naturally extends to surveillance of public places. Even when the surveillance is being conducted by a private entity? A private entity that's selling access to its private records of the comings and goings of a sizeable chunk of the population to police who are buying specifically because it would be a 4th Amendment violation for them to collect the data themselves? If it's reasonable for we consumers, who know that cell networks and phone makers are collecting our data, to expect privacy, then it's reasonable to extend that same expectation to operators of ALPR and related techs. There's no opt-out, after all. We can't reject the terms of service.
- anigbrowl 3mo ago
  I suspect the argument against that would be that you contract with the cell service provider and so have a colorable interest as a party to said contract. In contrast you have no such contractual relationship with Flock, and if your government contracted with them on your behalf your remedy is to vote harder.
  - seplox 3mo ago
    According to the ruling, the exposure of your location history is the automatic price of conventional cell-phone usage—which, just as Carpenter noted, is a "pervasive and insistent part of daily life." If we can't step out of our houses or drive to the doctor without that fact getting placed into a searchable database, then I'd argue that it qualifies as a "pervasive and insistent part of daily life."