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The Dutch figured out how to do collective dike maintenance a millennium ago without inventing mythical super government. Collective rules worked just fine. I

The Dutch figured out how to do collective dike maintenance a millennium ago without inventing mythical super government. Collective rules worked just fine. I encourage you to reflect on this bias. I suspect you're taking the American state as a template, and extrapolating its incompetence. The history is filled with different ideas - some of them far older than America itself. Hell, I'd call America a place so naturally rich, it's practically the case study how much dysfunction can be papered over with money instead of statecraft.

ericmay 4mo ago
And how did the Dutch collect the toll and who received the tax benefits for it? I’m interested in understanding your comparison here and how it would be applicable to space and how you envision it working based on your comparison.
- athrowaway3z 4mo ago
  You wish to take up a specific space, and with the right to use it come obligations. There was no tax or toll to consider. People naturally self-assembled under the idea that if you benefited, then you had to contribute. The calculation was: how much land did you have, how valuable was it, how much benefit you'd get from some waterworks (it wasnt just dikes but also rerouting rivers etc). Obligations were denominated in labor. My point is not that this was some perfect idyllic corruption-free scheme - it wasn't - but it was very transparent. All you should need for a stable system is for the majority of interests to align. One addition you can add is to have the labor be turned against individuals/groups that decide to unalign - i.e. instead of trashing space debris your next labor is to de-orbit a satellite if 1 company decides to try their luck at tyranny over cooperation. Things hinge on a shared understanding that its always possible to go back to the salted earth solution.
  - ericmay 4mo ago
    Ok but that's not what I asked... You're just saying "we should have some system that benefits everyone". Ok sure that sounds nice, but you compared it to a specific framework with an off-hand "we've solved this so long ago" type of comment. Surely if it's so simple and straightforward and the Dutch "already figured it out" you'd have at least some idea of a proposal or implementation details. How will the toll be collected? Who will collect it? How will it be fairly distributed?
    - vasco 4mo ago
      Those parts aren't the hard ones? You collect waterworks taxes the same way regular taxes are collected in NL. You get a letter with an amount to pay and you pay it. The waterworks is the entity that sends you the letter and manages the application of those taxes. The system that comment described is still in place today and operates in parallel to "regular" government.
      - JumpCrisscross 4mo ago
        > Those parts aren't the hard ones? For an international resource it absolutely is. Everyone would lobby their government to ditch to make a sprint. (Well, China and America and possibly rising powers like India or the UAE would.)
    - athrowaway3z 4mo ago
      You're not really good at asking anything. I did not say a system that benefits everyone. I did not say the dutch solved this exact problem, and my previous response was a best effort after you prompting me because i assume you've just never thought through or dealt with non-mega-government solutions before. I brought up the comparison because nba456_ 19 was already complaining about a required mythical global government - as if that's relevant for the 50y time frame we're planning for. I also dont understand why you keep bringing up tax and tolls. I'll try to answer that again in the other comment.
      - ericmay 4mo ago
        > I did not say a system that benefits everyone. Ok then the US can just ignore all this stuff and do what we want. > I also dont understand why you keep bringing up tax and tolls. I can tell - I think you’re having a hard time here defending an idea you now want to walk back. That’s fine. At the end of the day “collective maintenance” is typically achieved by either a tax or toll. I don’t have to keep bringing it up, but then you need to explain how your proposed system works instead of leaving one to guess. You suggested it was simple because the Dutch “figured it out an millennium ago”. Without global governance to address what is a global space - you know, space itself, how would your proposal work? American and European companies pay for some maintenance scheme but then China, Russia, and others ignore it? So it’s not global? Who will they pay anyway? Why would they agree to this scheme? > You're not really good at asking anything. This is incorrect. > i assume you've just never thought through or dealt with non-mega-government solutions before. Based on your inability to describe or walk through your solution I think it’s likely you think you’ve thought through this and you haven’t and now as your comment is being scrutinized you are turning to discussion points that don’t make a lot of sense.
  - someonebaggy 4mo ago
    What happened if you didn't pay?
    - athrowaway3z 4mo ago
      Pay what? Its a 'pure' system where nothing has to be denominated in money but instead we care about effects: taking-up-orbits, applying-force, and danger-pollution. The system requires the biggest player calculates the cost of non-compliance being too high either by: - the scheme triggering a clause where other members start to apply force to their non-sanctioned orbits and trashing their satellites, add in the additional threat of earthly economic sanctions like we do with so many companies. - the scheme breaking apart and becoming a wild west with _extreme_ danger-pollution. Clearly, at the moment, the biggest users do not care because the danger is low enough, and they'll try to delay a bit so they get more 'grandfathered' in. I'm not saying its going to be perfect or fair. I'm arguing its dumb to fear a mythical global government, because that's not required to create stable solutions for these kinds of issues.
      - someonebaggy 4mo ago
        So basically in order to prevent Kessler syndrome, everyone follows the regulations or the other participants punish them by destroying their satellites, causing Kessler syndrome?
- cjblomqvist 4mo ago
  The EU is collecting CO2 taxes (indirectly by giving permits out). That's a good comparison. There're tolls in the making for imports.
  - someonebaggy 4mo ago
    That works because every member country agrees to it
brookst 4mo ago
How many individual people were involved in collective dike maintenance, so we know the model scales? 100 million? 200 million?
- xmprt 4mo ago
  Do you anticipate 100 million space companies vying for orbit?
  - brookst 4mo ago
    I certainly anticipate a billion or more stakeholders on space companies. Or are you doing the corporations are people thing, so if five people can agree on something in a handshake, ethos-centric deal, then surely five space companies with billions of dollars invested from millions of people should surely be able to act like those original five people?
guelo 4mo ago
Not to mention that this bias is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Thanks to all the ideologues that get elected to government by insiting that government can't work, surprise, surprise, government doesn't work.
ralusek 4mo ago
European statecraft has led to a massive bureaucratic blob whose best and brightest just go to America.
gadders 4mo ago
Yes, that would totally work while countries like China, Russia, North Korea exist. They could all have a group hug and sing Kumbaya straight afterwards.
- asadotzler 4mo ago
  The US and Russia have been sharing the ISS for decades. If you can't get past your xenophobia enough to see that there's massive cooperation between the US and Russia in space and has been for probably longer than you've been alive.

ericmay 4mo ago

And how did the Dutch collect the toll and who received the tax benefits for it? I’m interested in understanding your comparison here and how it would be applicable to space and how you envision it working based on your comparison.

athrowaway3z 4mo ago
You wish to take up a specific space, and with the right to use it come obligations. There was no tax or toll to consider. People naturally self-assembled under the idea that if you benefited, then you had to contribute. The calculation was: how much land did you have, how valuable was it, how much benefit you'd get from some waterworks (it wasnt just dikes but also rerouting rivers etc). Obligations were denominated in labor. My point is not that this was some perfect idyllic corruption-free scheme - it wasn't - but it was very transparent. All you should need for a stable system is for the majority of interests to align. One addition you can add is to have the labor be turned against individuals/groups that decide to unalign - i.e. instead of trashing space debris your next labor is to de-orbit a satellite if 1 company decides to try their luck at tyranny over cooperation. Things hinge on a shared understanding that its always possible to go back to the salted earth solution.
- ericmay 4mo ago
  Ok but that's not what I asked... You're just saying "we should have some system that benefits everyone". Ok sure that sounds nice, but you compared it to a specific framework with an off-hand "we've solved this so long ago" type of comment. Surely if it's so simple and straightforward and the Dutch "already figured it out" you'd have at least some idea of a proposal or implementation details. How will the toll be collected? Who will collect it? How will it be fairly distributed?
  - vasco 4mo ago
    Those parts aren't the hard ones? You collect waterworks taxes the same way regular taxes are collected in NL. You get a letter with an amount to pay and you pay it. The waterworks is the entity that sends you the letter and manages the application of those taxes. The system that comment described is still in place today and operates in parallel to "regular" government.
    - JumpCrisscross 4mo ago
      > Those parts aren't the hard ones? For an international resource it absolutely is. Everyone would lobby their government to ditch to make a sprint. (Well, China and America and possibly rising powers like India or the UAE would.)
  - athrowaway3z 4mo ago
    You're not really good at asking anything. I did not say a system that benefits everyone. I did not say the dutch solved this exact problem, and my previous response was a best effort after you prompting me because i assume you've just never thought through or dealt with non-mega-government solutions before. I brought up the comparison because nba456_ 19 was already complaining about a required mythical global government - as if that's relevant for the 50y time frame we're planning for. I also dont understand why you keep bringing up tax and tolls. I'll try to answer that again in the other comment.
    - ericmay 4mo ago
      > I did not say a system that benefits everyone. Ok then the US can just ignore all this stuff and do what we want. > I also dont understand why you keep bringing up tax and tolls. I can tell - I think you’re having a hard time here defending an idea you now want to walk back. That’s fine. At the end of the day “collective maintenance” is typically achieved by either a tax or toll. I don’t have to keep bringing it up, but then you need to explain how your proposed system works instead of leaving one to guess. You suggested it was simple because the Dutch “figured it out an millennium ago”. Without global governance to address what is a global space - you know, space itself, how would your proposal work? American and European companies pay for some maintenance scheme but then China, Russia, and others ignore it? So it’s not global? Who will they pay anyway? Why would they agree to this scheme? > You're not really good at asking anything. This is incorrect. > i assume you've just never thought through or dealt with non-mega-government solutions before. Based on your inability to describe or walk through your solution I think it’s likely you think you’ve thought through this and you haven’t and now as your comment is being scrutinized you are turning to discussion points that don’t make a lot of sense.
- someonebaggy 4mo ago
  What happened if you didn't pay?
  - athrowaway3z 4mo ago
    Pay what? Its a 'pure' system where nothing has to be denominated in money but instead we care about effects: taking-up-orbits, applying-force, and danger-pollution. The system requires the biggest player calculates the cost of non-compliance being too high either by: - the scheme triggering a clause where other members start to apply force to their non-sanctioned orbits and trashing their satellites, add in the additional threat of earthly economic sanctions like we do with so many companies. - the scheme breaking apart and becoming a wild west with _extreme_ danger-pollution. Clearly, at the moment, the biggest users do not care because the danger is low enough, and they'll try to delay a bit so they get more 'grandfathered' in. I'm not saying its going to be perfect or fair. I'm arguing its dumb to fear a mythical global government, because that's not required to create stable solutions for these kinds of issues.
    - someonebaggy 4mo ago
      So basically in order to prevent Kessler syndrome, everyone follows the regulations or the other participants punish them by destroying their satellites, causing Kessler syndrome?
cjblomqvist 4mo ago
The EU is collecting CO2 taxes (indirectly by giving permits out). That's a good comparison. There're tolls in the making for imports.
- someonebaggy 4mo ago
  That works because every member country agrees to it

brookst 4mo ago

How many individual people were involved in collective dike maintenance, so we know the model scales? 100 million? 200 million?

xmprt 4mo ago
Do you anticipate 100 million space companies vying for orbit?
- brookst 4mo ago
  I certainly anticipate a billion or more stakeholders on space companies. Or are you doing the corporations are people thing, so if five people can agree on something in a handshake, ethos-centric deal, then surely five space companies with billions of dollars invested from millions of people should surely be able to act like those original five people?

guelo 4mo ago

Not to mention that this bias is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Thanks to all the ideologues that get elected to government by insiting that government can't work, surprise, surprise, government doesn't work.

ralusek 4mo ago

European statecraft has led to a massive bureaucratic blob whose best and brightest just go to America.

gadders 4mo ago

Yes, that would totally work while countries like China, Russia, North Korea exist. They could all have a group hug and sing Kumbaya straight afterwards.

asadotzler 4mo ago
The US and Russia have been sharing the ISS for decades. If you can't get past your xenophobia enough to see that there's massive cooperation between the US and Russia in space and has been for probably longer than you've been alive.