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I can’t hear this degrowth strawman anymore. There are probably 20 people complaining about people wanting degrowth for everyone who actually advocates for that

I can’t hear this degrowth strawman anymore. There are probably 20 people complaining about people wanting degrowth for everyone who actually advocates for that. It’s not like every politician in Europe is advocating for that.

simianwords 3mo ago
Degrowth is absolutely not niche in Western Europe. In Germany and NL, it is the new religion along with free Palestine movement. Take any moderately educated Zillenial and ask them what they feel passionately about. People are feeling more and more alienated from large scale projects of humanity. They have also given up on religion itself. What remains is a facade of religion where degrowth and Palestine take act as Pseudo Religion. Here in Germany I see stickers and Graffiti all the time. “Fuck the big Tech” “Fuck big oil” “ChatGPT bad” These are the kind of flyers I see. Of course I’m leaving out the Palestine stuff here. There are close to Zero educated people excited about the idea of growth. Ask them and they would tell you they’d rather have all capitalists done away with return to a past when we were all peaceful and not “destroying the planet”. Obviously I’m not claiming degrowth is majority. I’m claiming that at least within my bubble, zero people are excited about the potential of growth. And non trivial number of people want to kill growth.
- ramisallyouneed 3mo ago
  As a Dutchman, I was so surprised by the contents of this comment that I finally decided to make an account. Bringing up Palestine in this discussion is definitely a choice. Relating them as you have is special. The amount of public figures advocating degrowth is low and declining. And I follow a lot of climate voices.
  - simianwords 3mo ago
    170k people protested against Israel. Not once. Not twice. Multiple times. For an issue that’s not even in the same continent as them. Everywhere you go you see people’s homes hoisting Palestine flags. You see it in restaurants. Cafes. You see graffiti and flyers. It is definitely not normal levels of interest. It is religious levels of interest. I’m not saying it’s wrong however. The only other event that brings this much passion is maybe Kings Day or Pride Parade. Neither come close Here in Germany, not a single person I know is excited about the idea of growth. And a lot of people, even in tech are disgusted by generative AI. As a Dutchman, what do you think is the sentiment? Here’s a pic a mate from uni sent me (probably from Den Haag) https://imgur.com/a/HlTdw4P https://imgur.com/a/HlTdw4P > The duck says: QUACK ChatGPT into the trash bin. This would be considered ridiculous to even protest about in third world countries like Syria/Iraq.
    - ramisallyouneed 3mo ago
      Everyone has also seen daily footage coming out of the region of the horrible events. Are you surprised that people have an opinion on that? Moreover, political, financial and military ties between NL and Israel have been well-documented. So it's a bit silly to just discredit it all by saying it's not on the same continent (and therefore irrelevant?). It's also not that far and the country has been trying hard to align with the western world. Also, don't forget this has been going on for a long time (3y for the current iteration) already. I think some people are fed up with growth because it seems that growth will not bring the average person so much anymore. It'll definitely bring more and longer extreme heat in the future though. Are you excited about that? Here the usage of GenAI has already been adopted by so many people. I see the ChatGPT app all around me. I work in an office and all my colleagues use it. I also see a lot of people skeptical about it. Reasons to be skeptical about it are readily available online. So is it weird that some people hold that position to you? I'm indeed sure that people in third word countries are focused on basic human needs instead of protesting ChatGPT. Seems obvious. Why mention it?
      - simianwords 3mo ago
        A party that has ~20% vote share (amongst educated) is legitimately considering degrowth. https://www.wetenschappelijkbureaugroenlinks.nl/artikelen/groene-groei-ontgroeien https://www.wetenschappelijkbureaugroenlinks.nl/artikelen/gr... They also advice Post Growth which is degrowth-lite, read the document yourself. > In fact, the degrowth movement, which is rapidly gaining popularity among activists and scientists, advocates the deliberate scaling back of overproduction and overconsumption to bring the economy back into balance with the living world, in a way that reduces inequality and improves human well-being https://www.wetenschappelijkbureaugroenlinks.nl/geopolitics-post-growth https://www.wetenschappelijkbureaugroenlinks.nl/geopolitics-...
        robocat 3mo ago
        High on the political agenda of degrowthers is radical redistribution of wealth. Consuming less should be especially true for the 10 percent richest in the world, because they are responsible for half of CO2 emissions Tht dutch have about 1% of world wealth, so the above is just empty posturing since they don't have jurisdiction. Why not sabotage the world to fix the issue? Create some new diseases because that is definitely degrowth: diseases to kill the rich like gout ;) Perhaps say yes to war with the US?
- mthoms 3mo ago
  I'm old enough to remember the 1980's when people largely adopted a strikingly similar "new religion" that advocated for a free South Africa. The Free Tibet "religion" was also a huge thing for a while in the 90's. There are countless other examples. All with varying degrees of success. The point is, there's nothing new about people being passionate about human rights. It has absolutely nothing to do with... well... whatever "degrowth" is.
  - simianwords 3mo ago
    You may not see it but I see the parallels between degrowth and Palestine. Both are sad attempts at replacing religion. Something that brings people together for a common cause.
    - mthoms 3mo ago
      You’re right, I don’t see it. I can’t even imagine being against people coming together for a common cause. What a miserable world that would be.
- echoangle 3mo ago
  Well we’re both German and my experience is different. Stickers don’t really tell me anything and the rest is just anecdote.
- Hikikomori 3mo ago
  What an insane post.
  - simianwords 3mo ago
    You are replying to a post about Europe's resistance to AC that is causing distress over the full continent. You are free to decide what is more insane. My post or Europe's resistance.
    - Hikikomori 3mo ago
      I don't see it personally, in real life or in the news. Anyone with a house can add a heat pump that works as an AC here. Apartment buildings are harder of course, and lots of buildings are very old. Domestic homes generally don't have US like HVAC at all, typically use warm water or electric radiators in each room in apartments. But anyone with an apartment can use a portable AC and connect the outlet to their window. The rest of your post is what nutcases on streetcorners rant about. And its easy to see why there's resistance against Israel as Germany is one of its biggest supporters.

simianwords 3mo ago

Degrowth is absolutely not niche in Western Europe. In Germany and NL, it is the new religion along with free Palestine movement. Take any moderately educated Zillenial and ask them what they feel passionately about. People are feeling more and more alienated from large scale projects of humanity. They have also given up on religion itself. What remains is a facade of religion where degrowth and Palestine take act as Pseudo Religion. Here in Germany I see stickers and Graffiti all the time. “Fuck the big Tech” “Fuck big oil” “ChatGPT bad” These are the kind of flyers I see. Of course I’m leaving out the Palestine stuff here. There are close to Zero educated people excited about the idea of growth. Ask them and they would tell you they’d rather have all capitalists done away with return to a past when we were all peaceful and not “destroying the planet”. Obviously I’m not claiming degrowth is majority. I’m claiming that at least within my bubble, zero people are excited about the potential of growth. And non trivial number of people want to kill growth.

ramisallyouneed 3mo ago
As a Dutchman, I was so surprised by the contents of this comment that I finally decided to make an account. Bringing up Palestine in this discussion is definitely a choice. Relating them as you have is special. The amount of public figures advocating degrowth is low and declining. And I follow a lot of climate voices.
- simianwords 3mo ago
  170k people protested against Israel. Not once. Not twice. Multiple times. For an issue that’s not even in the same continent as them. Everywhere you go you see people’s homes hoisting Palestine flags. You see it in restaurants. Cafes. You see graffiti and flyers. It is definitely not normal levels of interest. It is religious levels of interest. I’m not saying it’s wrong however. The only other event that brings this much passion is maybe Kings Day or Pride Parade. Neither come close Here in Germany, not a single person I know is excited about the idea of growth. And a lot of people, even in tech are disgusted by generative AI. As a Dutchman, what do you think is the sentiment? Here’s a pic a mate from uni sent me (probably from Den Haag) https://imgur.com/a/HlTdw4P https://imgur.com/a/HlTdw4P > The duck says: QUACK ChatGPT into the trash bin. This would be considered ridiculous to even protest about in third world countries like Syria/Iraq.
  - ramisallyouneed 3mo ago
    Everyone has also seen daily footage coming out of the region of the horrible events. Are you surprised that people have an opinion on that? Moreover, political, financial and military ties between NL and Israel have been well-documented. So it's a bit silly to just discredit it all by saying it's not on the same continent (and therefore irrelevant?). It's also not that far and the country has been trying hard to align with the western world. Also, don't forget this has been going on for a long time (3y for the current iteration) already. I think some people are fed up with growth because it seems that growth will not bring the average person so much anymore. It'll definitely bring more and longer extreme heat in the future though. Are you excited about that? Here the usage of GenAI has already been adopted by so many people. I see the ChatGPT app all around me. I work in an office and all my colleagues use it. I also see a lot of people skeptical about it. Reasons to be skeptical about it are readily available online. So is it weird that some people hold that position to you? I'm indeed sure that people in third word countries are focused on basic human needs instead of protesting ChatGPT. Seems obvious. Why mention it?
    - simianwords 3mo ago
      A party that has ~20% vote share (amongst educated) is legitimately considering degrowth. https://www.wetenschappelijkbureaugroenlinks.nl/artikelen/groene-groei-ontgroeien https://www.wetenschappelijkbureaugroenlinks.nl/artikelen/gr... They also advice Post Growth which is degrowth-lite, read the document yourself. > In fact, the degrowth movement, which is rapidly gaining popularity among activists and scientists, advocates the deliberate scaling back of overproduction and overconsumption to bring the economy back into balance with the living world, in a way that reduces inequality and improves human well-being https://www.wetenschappelijkbureaugroenlinks.nl/geopolitics-post-growth https://www.wetenschappelijkbureaugroenlinks.nl/geopolitics-...
      - robocat 3mo ago
        High on the political agenda of degrowthers is radical redistribution of wealth. Consuming less should be especially true for the 10 percent richest in the world, because they are responsible for half of CO2 emissions Tht dutch have about 1% of world wealth, so the above is just empty posturing since they don't have jurisdiction. Why not sabotage the world to fix the issue? Create some new diseases because that is definitely degrowth: diseases to kill the rich like gout ;) Perhaps say yes to war with the US?
mthoms 3mo ago
I'm old enough to remember the 1980's when people largely adopted a strikingly similar "new religion" that advocated for a free South Africa. The Free Tibet "religion" was also a huge thing for a while in the 90's. There are countless other examples. All with varying degrees of success. The point is, there's nothing new about people being passionate about human rights. It has absolutely nothing to do with... well... whatever "degrowth" is.
- simianwords 3mo ago
  You may not see it but I see the parallels between degrowth and Palestine. Both are sad attempts at replacing religion. Something that brings people together for a common cause.
  - mthoms 3mo ago
    You’re right, I don’t see it. I can’t even imagine being against people coming together for a common cause. What a miserable world that would be.
echoangle 3mo ago
Well we’re both German and my experience is different. Stickers don’t really tell me anything and the rest is just anecdote.
Hikikomori 3mo ago
What an insane post.
- simianwords 3mo ago
  You are replying to a post about Europe's resistance to AC that is causing distress over the full continent. You are free to decide what is more insane. My post or Europe's resistance.
  - Hikikomori 3mo ago
    I don't see it personally, in real life or in the news. Anyone with a house can add a heat pump that works as an AC here. Apartment buildings are harder of course, and lots of buildings are very old. Domestic homes generally don't have US like HVAC at all, typically use warm water or electric radiators in each room in apartments. But anyone with an apartment can use a portable AC and connect the outlet to their window. The rest of your post is what nutcases on streetcorners rant about. And its easy to see why there's resistance against Israel as Germany is one of its biggest supporters.