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Europe's resistance to AC is driving it insane
- ErrorNoBrain 4mo agoI can live without AC, because i'd only 'need' it, for a couple of weeks in the year... and i doubt it'll be worth it tbh
- bob1029 4mo agoI am curious about the power grid situation in Europe. Assume the rate of AC usage was as high as the US (or god forbid Japan), how far behind is the grid infrastructure from where it needs to be? ERCOT (Texas) has daily swings of up to 50 gigawatts of power in the summer. I am pretty sure it is the most volatile US grid in terms of the demand side. A lot of the transmission infrastructure is purpose built for this exact problem.
- m4rtink 4mo agoThere are massive distributed solar deployments (eg. people putting cheap solar panels on their roofs, often backed by batteries) happening right now, those should help offset AC demands quite nicely.
- bob1029 4mo agoThe problem with solar (at least in Texas) is that the buildings store heat long enough that the peak of the HVAC demand curve coincides with when solar begins to taper off really hard. 5-6pm is when maximum HVAC demand occurs around here.
- robocat 4mo agoI would guess once there's enough solar generation installed, it would push prices low enough to make it worth decreasing stored heat by precooling
- bob1029 4mo agoVariable electricity rates are the best way to encourage the user base to actually do this. I was on Griddy for 2 years and had a system where I'd run my AC hard up until 4pm and then I'd set it to 78F until the rates came back down. Unfortunately these schemes were made illegal for the consumer segment in Texas because most people are complete dumbasses and need to be pandered to politically when anything unexpected happens to them (2021 winter power crisis).
- fragmede 4mo agoWhich were the people that were "dumbasses" in that situation, and why?
- petre 4mo agoThey don't have any problem with impact from EVs on the grid, but god forbid AC units. One could obviously solve the peoblem with rooftop solar, which peaks just when you need AC the most.
- throwa356262 4mo agoI don't understand this article. Europe is usually not this hot, hence lack of AC in many places. Floods and earthquakes are also uncommon, hence the buildings in most places are not up to code against, say, Japanese standards.
- ThrowawayTestr 4mo agoHow many old people need to die in heatwaves before you accept that the climate is changing?
- pydry 4mo agoAn American decided to be smug because Europe suddenly passed the threshold where aircon went from a nice to have to a necessity.
- nozzlegear 4mo agoIt's interesting that you found the author smug, rather than informative or maybe prosecutorial toward the European elites who ostensibly want to sacrifice the masses at the altar of degrowth.
- pydry 4mo agoThere is no "altar" of degrowth in Europe. it's interesting that Americans take such an "I told you so" attitude towards disasters they had such a disproportionate hand in creating.
- nozzlegear 4mo ago> There is no "altar" of degrowth in Europe. Are you sure? It's about the only place in the world where the philosophy of degrowth ever managed to get a toehold (Amsterdam, Grenoble, Copenhagen, Barcelona and some other bits of Spain). > it's interesting that Americans take such an "I told you so" attitude towards disasters they had such a disproportionate hand in creating. I think you're attributing smugness and "I told you so" attitudes to text that lacks it, just like I'm attributing a posh British lord's accent to your text. Good day to you sir!
- rescbr 4mo agoSolar panels + cooling + heating heat pump is the most logical combination as we are past the point of no return on global warming. And there's no need to be like the Americans that cool down to 18°C when the outside is > 35°C: simply decreasing the indoor temperature to saner numbers like 26°C is enough, it's summer after all. Less energy usage and it is enough for the body to be happy.
- Lwerewolf 4mo ago+ it lowers humidity and moves air.
- jurgenburgen 4mo ago> Solar panels + cooling + heating heat pump is the most logical combination as we are past the point of no return on global warming. I’ve been feeling confused lately about the news that the far-right parties in UK & France want more AC and the left-wing complain it’s not solving the root problems. Are people just not aware that heat pumps are a great solution for both heating and cooling, saving energy on heating during winter?
- ragazzina 4mo ago> Are people just not aware that heat pumps are a great solution In my European country, people struggle to buy houses, nobody is rushing to do a full house renovation. Furthermore, the consensus is: heat pumps are great for a new home or a full renovation. Installing a heat pump with old-style radiators makes no sense, because the heat pump heats to a low temperature.
- ZeroGravitas 4mo agoThat's mostly outdated info, modern heat pumps can heat to high temps. They are more efficient if run at lower temps but so are condensing gas boilers, which are the most directly competing technology.
- rescbr 4mo agoYou can keep the radiators in place when using mini-split heat pumps..
- JohnBrookz 4mo ago[flagged]
- mittermayr 4mo agoI’m sorry to hear about your very odd friends, but I suggest you consider traveling more yourself and gather some personal insights of the world. You should very quickly come to realize that Europe is not one place, one kind of people. This isn’t really something one would say, having spent even just a minute in one or two places here that aren’t Germany or France. Odd to read that.
- sph 4mo agoEurope is not a country. Given how many times we must have this conversation, I wonder if you guys are even taught geography in school?
- m2f2 4mo agoNot yet, at least, but close to (thanks, POTUS). Back to AC... I have to fork out 4000€ to replace an aging AC in a small flat 60sqm (650 sq feet). Just looking out of my window right now I can see 600 similar places, so that's 2.4mil EUR for a couple of (city) blocks. As AC is to be added as it won't replace the winter central heating system we got in most condos -- well that's a lot of money.
- m4rtink 4mo agoThen you are being ripped off - I have seen 40000 Kč for a combined heat-pump/AC air/air unit here in the Czech Republic, which is about 1600 EUR. And you are getting a very efficient modern AC & heat pump.
- Kim_Bruning 4mo agoWhy won't it replace the winter central heating? Can't turn it off? Or is it because you're in germany and the taxes on electricity actually offset your CoP (Coefficient of Performance)?
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- sph 4mo ago[flagged]
- subpixel 4mo agoI can relate to a certain type of reluctance, in that I live in a part of the US that has never needed air conditioning. I don't look forward to the hassle and expense of installing a heat pump. I don't look forward to the cost of running one. And I won't like resigning to the fact that the summers I've experienced my whole life, as did my ancestors, are over forever. Of course when it's regularly in the upper 80sF / 30C I will give in. I just empathize.
- revolvingthrow 4mo ago> sunlight causes most of the heat issues; cloudy days are unlikely to be extremely hot > solar panels convert sunlight to electricity > AC converts electricity to cooler air indoors Ah, if only there was a way to solve those three problems at once. Alas... As to the "resistance" to AC: is this an actual thing or just something the media made up? It seems that for the most part anyone who wants AC can just buy it, barring exceptions like historical buildings. If people want to cook themselves alive I’m not really seeing the issue, as they only harm themselves (unlike, say, with vaccines where herd immunity is important).
- throwaway676712 4mo agoIt's just a meme but too-online professional opinion-havers memed themselves into taking it seriously. Many such cases unfortunately
- nozzlegear 4mo agoHow is it a meme? The article literally lists instances of European elites chiding the lower classes for wanting AC, and spreading misinformation about portable units. It even recounts an instance of the AC being turned off during a heatwave on the floors of Ursula von der Leyen's building for regular staff, while the floors with chancellors and von der Leyen were prioritized and kept their AC. As the article notes: for all the talk about late-stage capitalism and elites, it's hard to imagine that happening in the US.
- throwaway676712 4mo agoEuropean elites as in a couple media figures and fellow extremely online people that professional internet opinion havers like him have convinced themselves control the world narrative. In reality AC is very common in Europe except in old buildings or poorer households, same as everywhere else. This is the same level of analysis as Europeans on 4chan saying >be Amerifat >get shot, you're supposed to grow out of meme thinking upon becoming a mature adult
- echoangle 4mo agoI can’t hear this degrowth strawman anymore. There are probably 20 people complaining about people wanting degrowth for everyone who actually advocates for that. It’s not like every politician in Europe is advocating for that.
- simianwords 4mo agoDegrowth is absolutely not niche in Western Europe. In Germany and NL, it is the new religion along with free Palestine movement. Take any moderately educated Zillenial and ask them what they feel passionately about. People are feeling more and more alienated from large scale projects of humanity. They have also given up on religion itself. What remains is a facade of religion where degrowth and Palestine take act as Pseudo Religion. Here in Germany I see stickers and Graffiti all the time. “Fuck the big Tech” “Fuck big oil” “ChatGPT bad” These are the kind of flyers I see. Of course I’m leaving out the Palestine stuff here. There are close to Zero educated people excited about the idea of growth. Ask them and they would tell you they’d rather have all capitalists done away with return to a past when we were all peaceful and not “destroying the planet”. Obviously I’m not claiming degrowth is majority. I’m claiming that at least within my bubble, zero people are excited about the potential of growth. And non trivial number of people want to kill growth.
- ramisallyouneed 4mo agoAs a Dutchman, I was so surprised by the contents of this comment that I finally decided to make an account. Bringing up Palestine in this discussion is definitely a choice. Relating them as you have is special. The amount of public figures advocating degrowth is low and declining. And I follow a lot of climate voices.
- simianwords 4mo ago170k people protested against Israel. Not once. Not twice. Multiple times. For an issue that’s not even in the same continent as them. Everywhere you go you see people’s homes hoisting Palestine flags. You see it in restaurants. Cafes. You see graffiti and flyers. It is definitely not normal levels of interest. It is religious levels of interest. I’m not saying it’s wrong however. The only other event that brings this much passion is maybe Kings Day or Pride Parade. Neither come close Here in Germany, not a single person I know is excited about the idea of growth. And a lot of people, even in tech are disgusted by generative AI. As a Dutchman, what do you think is the sentiment? Here’s a pic a mate from uni sent me (probably from Den Haag) https://imgur.com/a/HlTdw4P https://imgur.com/a/HlTdw4P > The duck says: QUACK ChatGPT into the trash bin. This would be considered ridiculous to even protest about in third world countries like Syria/Iraq.
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- pibaker 4mo agoI have seen more criticism of resistance against AC than people actually arguing against AC. Maybe there is a group of loud AC resistors somewhere that I managed to avoid this whole time? Or maybe the pundits are pushing a narrative to rile people up and drive their substack income like they always do? Who knows!
- citadel_melon 4mo agoThis other article mentioned that France’s left party was anti-AC but are now starting to change their policy positions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48661506 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48661506 From this limited sample, I’d imagine there was a groups of advocates arguing for anti-AC policies, but that this is now shifting with as climate change develops. Questionable (albeit maybe defensible) degrowth policies are not unheard of in the EU. Most famously is Germany’s move away from nuclear which forced their dependence on Russian natural gas. So there is probably truth that people used to be somewhat anti-AC. But, I’d share your skepticism if there are large groups of people who still believe in anti-AC policies. The article I share would suggest many of these people have updated their priors.
- Tmpod 4mo agoI always struggle to take these sort of posts from people who don't live in "Europe" seriously. Europe is not a unit like the USA is, it's very diverse, and you generally can't neatly extrapolate your observations from one country to all others. It hasn't ever been this hot, this regularly, especially in the northen parts of the continent. Add that to the number of historical building, streets, etc, that really can't (or shouldn't) get littered with eyesores on every balcony, and you can understand why AC units never picked up much steam in a lot of places. But that doesn't mean people have some twisted aversion to the technology, in fact, it already exists in many places. Where I'm from (a southern country), it's more common for a public place (buildings, transport, and so on) to have AC than to not have it. On people's homes, it's less common, but there's been a natural increase in demand. Unfortunately, many can't justify the investment to retrofit it into existing buildings, though new ones are likely to be built with central HVAC systems. I don't know, it feels weird to read pieces like this one. It seems clear the author does not live over here and has a skewed conception of what Europe is and the peculiarities of each country and region. His previous post on the topic even goes as far as calling out some form of resistant to "foreign technology"... It's easy to make blanket assumptions, but a bit of empathy and a more careful approach into these issues would go a long way.
- citadel_melon 4mo agoEuropeans (and oftentimes Americans themselves) tend to underestimate American diversity. Even on this AC issue where I would admit that there is less national variance compared to the EU. Yet still, about 90% of the US has AC but there are places like San Francisco where only 50% of buildings have AC. In Berkeley California only 20% of buildings have AC. Again, on this AC issue I admit has less variance than Europe has, but that builds my point if anything. On other issues Americans can have much more variance than your premise implies. Have you considered the life of an Utah Mormon (who may use food rations in lieu of kitchen furniture) is drastically different than a kid growing up in the Bronx (who may have grew up playing on public outdoor courts and have radical independence since middle school because of the MTA)? Have you compared a rural Appalachian’s lifestyle and culture to that of a SF big tech worker? North New Jersey full of suburban white-collar workers who would have trouble understanding southern New Jersey full of farms who have annual festivities where they compare tractors and catch greased-pigs. I find that even “coastal elites” from SF and NYC — people groups who should be most ideologically/socially aligned due to their shared economic statuses, ability to travel, and many points of cross contamination/communication — don’t fully understand eachother’s drastic ideological and lifestyle philosophical differences very well. Moreover, within just one borough of one city there can be drastic diversity in between its townships: NYC Queens having much more diverse townships than any particular borough in Europe. Europeans who rely of the premise that America is not diverse I find to be just as dumb as the average American.
- tsoukase 4mo agoCentral-western Europe will have to massively install ACs, sooner or later, either only for cooling or both. They will not resist the summer heat in the coming years. Good for the AC companies. The most difficult step is to accept the ugliness of the external unit to their beautiful buildings. Imagine Paris with a gray box hanged out of each 35m2 apartment.
- sjducb 4mo agoInstalling AC feels like admitting defeat. 30 years ago we thought we could stop this thing. Our world leaders came together, listened to scientists and agreed targets. Sadly we failed. Now I’m going to have to buy AC and make an even bigger contribution to global warming.
- tencentshill 4mo agoIt may cause a heat island effect locally, but as long as the EU keeps fighting for abundant clean energy, everyone can have AC guilt-free.
- ttepasse 4mo agoAs usual with culture war topics: Those examples in that article are often selective quoting and abridging information and a multi-step game of telephone and the language barrier hinders monolinguistic people from crosschecking. Let's try one example, going back to sources: 1) Noah Smith writes "Meanwhile, some people at Germany’s Federal Environmental Ministry claimed (falsely) that portable air conditioners don’t work.", linking on a tweet by Andrew Hammel. https://x.com/AndrewHammel1/status/2070436290915426555 https://x.com/AndrewHammel1/status/2070436290915426555 (Hammel, in my opinion, has radicalised since 2015, producing culture war content about Germany for rightwing english-speaking audiences. I remember his old weblog from the 2000s, when he was a mild-mannered expat.) 2) Hammel's tweet shows a screenshot of an infographic which the news magazine ZDFHeute posted on Instagram. We can see those infographics in context, they are basically practical tips. There is the shortened sentence that the Federal Agency for the Enviroment, the Umweltbundesamt, advises against "portable ACs". That is true. But Hammel, I think, goes nuts. https://www.instagram.com/p/DZ6xUPUlpYv/?img_index=2 https://www.instagram.com/p/DZ6xUPUlpYv/?img_index=2 3) Let's crosscheck with what the Umweltbundesamt actually wrote. We can find that on their homepage: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/umwelttipps-fuer-den-alltag/gegen-die-hitze-das-koennen-sie-im-sommer-fuer https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/umwelttipps-fuer-den-alltag/g... First practical advice how to behave in a heat wave. Then practical advice for buildings and new construction, awning, isolation, heat pumps, etc. Thirdly advice for AC, when necessary: energy efficient (it's the Umweltbundesamt after all), no polluting refrigerants, a preference for split AC units, where the radiator is on the outside instead of the inside. They contrast split AC against "portable units" also knows as monoblocks which are by definition not split but where the radiator is on the same unit and the radiator's hot air either goes directly into the room oder has to be transported outside through an open window. Hence the advice against monoblocks. Additional complication nobody mentions: Practical all windows in Germany are of the tilt and turn type, which makes them not as practical for window AC units, because then the whole window is open. Take a look at the "portable" AC units sold by a national electronics chain: https://www.mediamarkt.de/de/category/klimaanlagen-100.html https://www.mediamarkt.de/de/category/klimaanlagen-100.html Almost all are inefficient monoblocks, no window units, only one portable split AC the Midea PortaSplit - which is sold out. And rather costly with 850 €. But the PortaSplit is the best practical option for a lot of Germans, because it's a nation of renters. In summary: 1) The Umweltbundesamt published practical advice including a preference for split AC units against monoblocks. I find that reasonable. 2) The news magazine ZDFHeute published a very abridged infographic quoting that advice. Could be better. 3) Hammel screenshots that infographic, doesn't crosscheck und rants in his tweet more about a strawman than what the UBA actually wrote. 4) Noah Smith simply believes what he sees on social media, I presume, because it fits his preconceived notions. 5) People on Hacker News ... well. Let's say most of them are not good on nuance on Europe. ... What makes these discussions so annoying is that there is always a kernel of truth. But to put these kernels into context is work. I'm typing here for over half an hour already, just for randos on the net. Something I'd like these culture warriors to look on concept like path dependency and cost-benefit. The reason a lot of northern Europe doesn't have AC, is a mixture of multiple things: heatwaves were extremely rare, the famous 2003 was described as a huge outlier. Hence there was a long time not a big market for ACs, hence the inventory and possibilities are spare. Then a lot of old construction that can not easily modified. I live in a small apartment in a block built in 1904, now under historical preservation. Installing fixed AC would need major investment by the landlord and is often not practical. I think there is only a small wall usable for a per-apartment split AC. A whole-house of whole block unit or even better heat pumps would need major investment for 100s of small apartments here. And for me, buying a PortaSplit when they are available. I'd like to. But 850 € is far out of my budget (I'm rather poor). And then there is the cost-benefit-analysis: There were only two days this year where the temperature inside was annoying for me. Those old building has 1m thick brick walls which isolate pretty well for the days of a heat wave. We had a few days with 37° C and more. The temperature in my apartment was the most time around 26° C, very slowly heating up. And now it's cooler for the next weeks. I was looking for a meteorological climate diagram for my city and the average temperature for June/July is around 24°. For let's say maybe five nights a year, I won't touch the emergency fund. If I lived differently, maybe under the roof, my calculation were different. Those are all practical, economical decisions. But Noah Smith invents a whole ideological strawman. If we all were rich, we were living in passive houses or plus energy houses with air-to-air heat pumps. We aren't. It's always money. It's very seldom ideology.