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Systemd resistance is silly to me. Systemd is what is turning Linux into a viable modern OS. You need something to tie all the parts of the OS together with a u

Systemd resistance is silly to me. Systemd is what is turning Linux into a viable modern OS. You need something to tie all the parts of the OS together with a unified API, otherwise you'll be fighting fragmentation constantly. I don't like the age verification thing either, but all systemd did was add a field for it, it's still up to your distro to use it.

wolvoleo 3mo ago
Fragmentation is what makes Linux great imo. I'm not against systemd per se but I am against monoculture.
- lukan 3mo ago
  And what are your thoughts on deploying software to a fragmented system?
  - wolvoleo 3mo ago
    Just like it's done now, every distro having their own system. It containerization for people who like that. What I have an issue with is apps making themselves dependent on systemd like KDE is doing. https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1qi9vo5/comment/o0pzvqc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1qi9vo5/comment/o0pzvq...
    - tuna74 3mo ago
      KDE is not an app, it is a fully blown DE.
  - prmoustache 3mo ago
    You define the supported target and that's it. RHEL and Ubuntu LTS, kubernetes, docker/podman or flatpak are popular ones.
  - graemep 3mo ago
    Systemd does not solve the deployment problem, and will not unless it adds something like a systemd package manager. It is interesting that Linux is far more widely used than alternatives that are not fragmented (e.g. FreeBSD) and has not standardised on one distro. Different people have different needs and preferences. People using Debian, Alpine, and NixOS are unlikely to agree on what they want.
    - INTPenis 3mo ago
      If you want to get a good idea of how different modern Linux APIs are now compared to before. Look at cPanel vs. cockpit. cPanel had to maintain its own unified API above a slew of other interfaces, while Cockpit benefits from a unified OS API. And we're only getting started, we still have a long way to go. Yes I love the diversity of the open source ecosystem, I love that people are free to create their own distros without systemd. But I love my distros with systemd too much to switch.
    - NekkoDroid 3mo ago
      > Systemd does not solve the deployment problem, and will not unless it adds something like a systemd package manager. It really doesn't need to provide a package manager. Systemd already basically has all the knobs for launching services in their own little world (`RootImage=`, `RootDirectory=` and recently `RootMStack=` (for a de-OCI'd layered container images)) or systemd-portabled. There are probably more things I forgot.
    - wolvoleo 3mo ago
      Well no but that has some other reasons outside the fragmentation. Businesses in general hate the MIT license because anything they contribute can be used by their competitors without opening the source. I personally like this about FreeBSD. I hate the way Linux has been infiltrated by all the business suits and it's now an OS with billions of dollars of interests pulling at it. Look at the linux foundation board, it's all suits, they're not community guys. Or all the contributions that are mostly done by people doing it as part of their work at big tech. In my opinion the big tech companies' interests are completely opposite to my own, I don't believe in 'win-win' when it comes to enterprise participation in open source. As such Linux is not a great option for me, but for many people it is because they don't care so much about that. FreeBSD isn't really a monoculture either by the way. There are many different distros there too, they are just really fringe because FreeBSD itself is fringe.
  - Someone 3mo ago
    Not the OP, but the historical answer was POSIX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX, https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1109/2.56856 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1109/2.56856). That didn’t work perfectly, but it did work to some extent.
    - mort96 3mo ago
      POSIX is great! For basic command line apps which don't really need to interact with the system other than reading user provided files and directories. For graphical stuff, or stuff which wants to interact more deeply with the system, you need so much more than a common C API and rudimentary shell specification.
- yoggodoggo 3mo ago
  The Linux Kernel is a monolith.
  - prmoustache 3mo ago
    The linux kernel is only the kernel though. MacOS is not XNU.
  - wolvoleo 3mo ago
    That's not what I mean.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3mo ago
    They said monoculture. That said, I'll happily argue that the Linux monoculture is real and a problem.
xuhu 3mo ago
Linux will still be viable when systemd is gone. There will always be a need for open software.

wolvoleo 3mo ago

Fragmentation is what makes Linux great imo. I'm not against systemd per se but I am against monoculture.

lukan 3mo ago
And what are your thoughts on deploying software to a fragmented system?
- wolvoleo 3mo ago
  Just like it's done now, every distro having their own system. It containerization for people who like that. What I have an issue with is apps making themselves dependent on systemd like KDE is doing. https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1qi9vo5/comment/o0pzvqc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1qi9vo5/comment/o0pzvq...
  - tuna74 3mo ago
    KDE is not an app, it is a fully blown DE.
- prmoustache 3mo ago
  You define the supported target and that's it. RHEL and Ubuntu LTS, kubernetes, docker/podman or flatpak are popular ones.
- graemep 3mo ago
  Systemd does not solve the deployment problem, and will not unless it adds something like a systemd package manager. It is interesting that Linux is far more widely used than alternatives that are not fragmented (e.g. FreeBSD) and has not standardised on one distro. Different people have different needs and preferences. People using Debian, Alpine, and NixOS are unlikely to agree on what they want.
  - INTPenis 3mo ago
    If you want to get a good idea of how different modern Linux APIs are now compared to before. Look at cPanel vs. cockpit. cPanel had to maintain its own unified API above a slew of other interfaces, while Cockpit benefits from a unified OS API. And we're only getting started, we still have a long way to go. Yes I love the diversity of the open source ecosystem, I love that people are free to create their own distros without systemd. But I love my distros with systemd too much to switch.
  - NekkoDroid 3mo ago
    > Systemd does not solve the deployment problem, and will not unless it adds something like a systemd package manager. It really doesn't need to provide a package manager. Systemd already basically has all the knobs for launching services in their own little world (`RootImage=`, `RootDirectory=` and recently `RootMStack=` (for a de-OCI'd layered container images)) or systemd-portabled. There are probably more things I forgot.
  - wolvoleo 3mo ago
    Well no but that has some other reasons outside the fragmentation. Businesses in general hate the MIT license because anything they contribute can be used by their competitors without opening the source. I personally like this about FreeBSD. I hate the way Linux has been infiltrated by all the business suits and it's now an OS with billions of dollars of interests pulling at it. Look at the linux foundation board, it's all suits, they're not community guys. Or all the contributions that are mostly done by people doing it as part of their work at big tech. In my opinion the big tech companies' interests are completely opposite to my own, I don't believe in 'win-win' when it comes to enterprise participation in open source. As such Linux is not a great option for me, but for many people it is because they don't care so much about that. FreeBSD isn't really a monoculture either by the way. There are many different distros there too, they are just really fringe because FreeBSD itself is fringe.
- Someone 3mo ago
  Not the OP, but the historical answer was POSIX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX, https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1109/2.56856 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1109/2.56856). That didn’t work perfectly, but it did work to some extent.
  - mort96 3mo ago
    POSIX is great! For basic command line apps which don't really need to interact with the system other than reading user provided files and directories. For graphical stuff, or stuff which wants to interact more deeply with the system, you need so much more than a common C API and rudimentary shell specification.
yoggodoggo 3mo ago
The Linux Kernel is a monolith.
- prmoustache 3mo ago
  The linux kernel is only the kernel though. MacOS is not XNU.
- wolvoleo 3mo ago
  That's not what I mean.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3mo ago
  They said monoculture. That said, I'll happily argue that the Linux monoculture is real and a problem.

xuhu 3mo ago

Linux will still be viable when systemd is gone. There will always be a need for open software.