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I know systems thinking, and am in favor of a version of these types of legislation. Give me your best argument from systems thinking, and I'll give you a thoug

I know systems thinking, and am in favor of a version of these types of legislation. Give me your best argument from systems thinking, and I'll give you a thoughtful reply.

jchanimal 3mo ago
The only reasonable solution shape I've seen is the one that trusts the parents to set an operating system setting that says whether or not the user is allowed to access adult content. And so it doesn't actually verify age, it just verifies parental intent.
- delusional 3mo ago
  I would not be opposed to that solution. If that's what we can get passed, I'd be happy. Personally, I'm more in favor of a version that integrates with a government issued digital id that attests a user can legally see the provided material. The publisher would have to implement the check, because my version also includes the technical capability to disregard the law. You then just have to be ready to be charged with a crime. I think the reason I prefer this is that my country almost already has the infrastructure for this system.
HerbManic 3mo ago
The argument usually is that it is a slippery slope. Something that is introduced in the name of virtue ends up being co-opted into a system of control as those in power and peoples attitudes change with subsequent layers of normalization.
- delusional 3mo ago
  Sure, maybe that's true. Who knows, maybe it will also actually just work and solve the problem. There's no argument there. The argument that touches on "those in power" must also contend with "those in power" just abusing that power anyway, no matter what legislation is passed. People in power are usually pretty crafty.
ball_of_lint 3mo ago
A significant part of the cultural value of the internet comes from free anonymous expression. As a key example, look at 4chan - anonymity taken to it's extreme has resulted in on one hand yes a lot of disgusting stuff, but also a cultural hotbed. Age verification is de facto identity verification. Eff says it well: > But no matter the method, every system demands users hand over sensitive and immutable personal information that links their offline identity to their online activity. https://www.eff.org/issues/age-verification https://www.eff.org/issues/age-verification Tying every action taken online to the user's real identity will have a deep and catastrophic chilling effect, destroying those very places that are creating our culture.
- delusional 3mo ago
  > A significant part of the cultural value of the internet comes from free anonymous expression. That's a value judgment. I'm sure it's true for some on this website, and certainly most on 4chan, but I would caution against broadening that into the general public. For my mom, the value of the internet is sharing dog pictures and clubhouse opening hours with people she known in real life. For my dad it's browsing web shops that have physical presence. None of those things offer any sort of anonymous expression. I would also argue that presenting 4chan as more interesting than it is troubling or disgusting is pretty telling. The internet would not be culturally poorer for 4chan shutting down.
  - ball_of_lint 3mo ago
    Every argument in this thread comes from a value judgement? If you don't have personal privacy as a value then the answer is obvious - this is going to save kids from porn for no harm, let's usher it in. Only if you do value privacy (value judgement), can I start to convince you that this legislation has a strong, negative outcome in that area, and that it isn't effective at 'saving kids'. --- Online commerce and dog pictures to personal friends are not of significant _cultural_ value. Which is what I was focusing on there. If you want to measure it by economic value that's a whole different ballgame. I also find 4chan mostly disgusting. But that's the key point and what this cuts to: Is anonymous expression something that should exist?

I know systems thinking, and am in favor of a version of these types of legislation. Give me your best argument from systems thinking, and I'll give you a thoughtful reply.

jchanimal 3mo ago

The only reasonable solution shape I've seen is the one that trusts the parents to set an operating system setting that says whether or not the user is allowed to access adult content. And so it doesn't actually verify age, it just verifies parental intent.

delusional 3mo ago
I would not be opposed to that solution. If that's what we can get passed, I'd be happy. Personally, I'm more in favor of a version that integrates with a government issued digital id that attests a user can legally see the provided material. The publisher would have to implement the check, because my version also includes the technical capability to disregard the law. You then just have to be ready to be charged with a crime. I think the reason I prefer this is that my country almost already has the infrastructure for this system.

HerbManic 3mo ago

The argument usually is that it is a slippery slope. Something that is introduced in the name of virtue ends up being co-opted into a system of control as those in power and peoples attitudes change with subsequent layers of normalization.

delusional 3mo ago
Sure, maybe that's true. Who knows, maybe it will also actually just work and solve the problem. There's no argument there. The argument that touches on "those in power" must also contend with "those in power" just abusing that power anyway, no matter what legislation is passed. People in power are usually pretty crafty.

ball_of_lint 3mo ago

A significant part of the cultural value of the internet comes from free anonymous expression. As a key example, look at 4chan - anonymity taken to it's extreme has resulted in on one hand yes a lot of disgusting stuff, but also a cultural hotbed. Age verification is de facto identity verification. Eff says it well: > But no matter the method, every system demands users hand over sensitive and immutable personal information that links their offline identity to their online activity. https://www.eff.org/issues/age-verification https://www.eff.org/issues/age-verification Tying every action taken online to the user's real identity will have a deep and catastrophic chilling effect, destroying those very places that are creating our culture.

delusional 3mo ago
> A significant part of the cultural value of the internet comes from free anonymous expression. That's a value judgment. I'm sure it's true for some on this website, and certainly most on 4chan, but I would caution against broadening that into the general public. For my mom, the value of the internet is sharing dog pictures and clubhouse opening hours with people she known in real life. For my dad it's browsing web shops that have physical presence. None of those things offer any sort of anonymous expression. I would also argue that presenting 4chan as more interesting than it is troubling or disgusting is pretty telling. The internet would not be culturally poorer for 4chan shutting down.
- ball_of_lint 3mo ago
  Every argument in this thread comes from a value judgement? If you don't have personal privacy as a value then the answer is obvious - this is going to save kids from porn for no harm, let's usher it in. Only if you do value privacy (value judgement), can I start to convince you that this legislation has a strong, negative outcome in that area, and that it isn't effective at 'saving kids'. --- Online commerce and dog pictures to personal friends are not of significant _cultural_ value. Which is what I was focusing on there. If you want to measure it by economic value that's a whole different ballgame. I also find 4chan mostly disgusting. But that's the key point and what this cuts to: Is anonymous expression something that should exist?