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I'm 60+. I'd be more concerned about the student's physical ability to write for several hours continuously. Writer's cramp used to be a problem, and that was w

I'm 60+. I'd be more concerned about the student's physical ability to write for several hours continuously. Writer's cramp used to be a problem, and that was when we were used to hand-writing everything. Legibility is also a consideration: I have to hand-write a lot(keyboards would not be socially acceptable for some of my work), and even with decades of practice and a hand that I designed for legibility, sometimes I have difficulty reading my own writing.

forgetfreeman 3mo ago
I have absolutely no concern over a 20 yr old's ability to weather the rigors of manipulating a 7 gram pencil. It's not like we're talking about getting them to spend a week on a roofing crew or swap their gaming mouse for a set of post hole diggers here. If someone needs an accommodation then that should absolutely be made available.
- hansvm 3mo ago
  I'm all for handwritten tests, but it's more complicated than that. If you're actually writing for 2hr+ and haven't studied appropriate technique or bought some sort of crutch like a pencil holder then the repetitive motion will absolutely cause cramps for a fraction of the class regardless of being 20ish and healthy, and they might not find that out until they're forced to write for 2hr. The muscles manipulating a pencil (with poor technique) are much smaller than those manipulating a post hole digger, so that comparison isn't fair.
  - aetch 3mo ago
    What are you even talking about? It’s normal for young students to be using a pencil to write for multiple hours in a day in school.
    - hansvm 3mo ago
      With breaks, and it's also normal that in a class of ~30 you'll still find a couple students with cramps.
      - account42 3mo ago
        A good exam also has breaks between writing because you need them to think about what you are going to write. An exam that is just about writing down words as fast as you can is going to suck whether that's handwritten or with a keyboard.
      - aetch 3mo ago
        Won’t someone think about the students who get cramps from typing on keyboards as well??
  - lejalv 3mo ago
    Not in my experience, nobody complained of that during my studies. 74 exams over 5 years ca. 2h long, also 2h long lectures, often without pause, back-to-back with another such lecture (but max 2 in a row)
- tengwar2 3mo ago
  Nothing to do with weight. It's a cramp in the muscles of the hand from holding the pen and making fine movements for hours. I'm guessing you are from a generation after keyboard use became common, so you haven't encountered it.
  - forgetfreeman 3mo ago
    Right and wrong. I am of a generation before common keyboard usage. As far as writers cramp goes, we all got it from time to time. At worst it was a minor nuisance compared to the skinned knees, bruises, and occasional broken bone that we racked up recreationally.
- redsocksfan45 3mo ago
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QuadmasterXLII 3mo ago
We have to notice that high stakes exams on paper worked for hundreds, possibly thousands of years, and high stakes exams on personal laptops have been tried for approximately six years and worked for none of them. With that framing, I don’t think the burden of proof is on the side saying that kids can take exams on paper?
- tengwar2 3mo ago
  They have, but antiquity is not necessarily a good argument. I attended a university which required examinees to wear a black suit, white bow tie, bands, and a gown. I don't recommend it. But this is missing the point. The issue is not that people in general can't write by hand for hours, but that these particular people may have difficulty.
- wtrwqyw 3mo ago
  > We have to notice that high stakes exams on paper worked for hundreds, possibly thousands of years Define “worked” there are reasons we have abandoned quite a few archaic practices which turned to be highly ineffective in hindsight (and often quite misery inducing). I’m not implying that handwriting is one of them just that it’s a terrible argument. > burden of proof is on the side saying that kids Smacking children who fail to give a correct answer with a stick worker for thousands of years as well..

forgetfreeman 3mo ago

I have absolutely no concern over a 20 yr old's ability to weather the rigors of manipulating a 7 gram pencil. It's not like we're talking about getting them to spend a week on a roofing crew or swap their gaming mouse for a set of post hole diggers here. If someone needs an accommodation then that should absolutely be made available.

hansvm 3mo ago
I'm all for handwritten tests, but it's more complicated than that. If you're actually writing for 2hr+ and haven't studied appropriate technique or bought some sort of crutch like a pencil holder then the repetitive motion will absolutely cause cramps for a fraction of the class regardless of being 20ish and healthy, and they might not find that out until they're forced to write for 2hr. The muscles manipulating a pencil (with poor technique) are much smaller than those manipulating a post hole digger, so that comparison isn't fair.
- aetch 3mo ago
  What are you even talking about? It’s normal for young students to be using a pencil to write for multiple hours in a day in school.
  - hansvm 3mo ago
    With breaks, and it's also normal that in a class of ~30 you'll still find a couple students with cramps.
    - account42 3mo ago
      A good exam also has breaks between writing because you need them to think about what you are going to write. An exam that is just about writing down words as fast as you can is going to suck whether that's handwritten or with a keyboard.
    - aetch 3mo ago
      Won’t someone think about the students who get cramps from typing on keyboards as well??
- lejalv 3mo ago
  Not in my experience, nobody complained of that during my studies. 74 exams over 5 years ca. 2h long, also 2h long lectures, often without pause, back-to-back with another such lecture (but max 2 in a row)
tengwar2 3mo ago
Nothing to do with weight. It's a cramp in the muscles of the hand from holding the pen and making fine movements for hours. I'm guessing you are from a generation after keyboard use became common, so you haven't encountered it.
- forgetfreeman 3mo ago
  Right and wrong. I am of a generation before common keyboard usage. As far as writers cramp goes, we all got it from time to time. At worst it was a minor nuisance compared to the skinned knees, bruises, and occasional broken bone that we racked up recreationally.
redsocksfan45 3mo ago
[dead]

QuadmasterXLII 3mo ago

We have to notice that high stakes exams on paper worked for hundreds, possibly thousands of years, and high stakes exams on personal laptops have been tried for approximately six years and worked for none of them. With that framing, I don’t think the burden of proof is on the side saying that kids can take exams on paper?

tengwar2 3mo ago
They have, but antiquity is not necessarily a good argument. I attended a university which required examinees to wear a black suit, white bow tie, bands, and a gown. I don't recommend it. But this is missing the point. The issue is not that people in general can't write by hand for hours, but that these particular people may have difficulty.
wtrwqyw 3mo ago
> We have to notice that high stakes exams on paper worked for hundreds, possibly thousands of years Define “worked” there are reasons we have abandoned quite a few archaic practices which turned to be highly ineffective in hindsight (and often quite misery inducing). I’m not implying that handwriting is one of them just that it’s a terrible argument. > burden of proof is on the side saying that kids Smacking children who fail to give a correct answer with a stick worker for thousands of years as well..