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Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. The honor system is idyllic and requires idyllic circumstances: people

Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. The honor system is idyllic and requires idyllic circumstances: people who pursue education for no reason other than curiosity or self improvement. If you want the honor system back then you need to offer more stable safety nets. It's not "kids these days", it's the natural result of the systems adults have made.

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
nerdsniper 4mo ago
> Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. Yes it was. This was the pitch for as long as Google has existed. The only relevant change from the early days of Google is that now you also need to go to a T20 school and GPA inflation has gone completely insane.
nekusar 4mo ago
[flagged]
- npstr 4mo ago
  Seems easy to counter all of this. I study at a German remote university, and they require, next to the front camera, a second camera to record the screen + hands and arms of the student while taking exams, and before the exam starts a complete video of the room, below desk areas, ears, etc. I don't see an angle how to reliably cheat in such conditions, and have seen nothing mentioned by any other student. So I would say it's up to the university if they want to allow fraud like that...they could easily stop it.
  - nekusar 4mo ago
    In-ear Bluetooth earbud with TTS. There's also TI-84 mods that add esp32 and can hook up an LLM. There's always a defeat.
    - willis936 4mo ago
      Wow and I thought I was slick for programming routines for Maxwell's and coordinate transformations in my TI-84.
    - npstr 4mo ago
      ears have to be shown to camera to confirm no devices inside own calculator not allowed, there is one provided by the software that must be used
  - 05 4mo ago
    Second stationary camera recording the screen meaning you just need to replace the screen with the virtual screen in the footage you send as the secondary camera feed, easy for a static camera because it’s an affine transform with fixed parameters. If you don’t wave your arms in a way where they overlap the screen region then it’s ridiculously easy, otherwise don’t forget to release the ‘cheating on’ foot pedal before doing that.
- overtone1000 4mo ago
  If one of these clients of yours became an engineer, doctor, or lawyer, would you want their services for yourself or your family?
  - lstodd 4mo ago
    if someone shows that kind of dedication to engineering, and make no mistake, this is engineering, I would certainly hire them at least as an apprentice. one can settle into a doctor or lawyer career some time later. one can't learn to think out of the box on a whim.
- Aurornis 4mo ago
  I think we're headed into a world where remote degrees have little value for this reason. Universities which have remote or take-home exams won't be far behind. Which sadly only makes it more of a rich kids' game, because the name-brand universities become the only ones that can be trusted. You see an out-of-state university that isn't a household name on someone's resume and you can't tell if it's one where students are monitored or if it's just a place where people pay a lot of money to transfer questions and results back and forth from ChatGPT. I think we're also going to see a lot of people crash out of college halfway through when they start their academic career cheating, then get hit with a dose of reality when they encounter classes that require in-person, monitored work. If this happens 2-3 years into college, the student isn't going to quickly catch up. They're going to crash out. I don't think this is having the effect you think it does.
  - s5300 4mo ago
    [dead]
thaumasiotes 4mo ago
> Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. Assuming the person you're talking to is still alive, this isn't true. > The honor system is idyllic and requires idyllic circumstances: people who pursue education for no reason other than curiosity or self improvement. This isn't true either; if your student body consists of only those people, you don't need any system at all. There is no point in even notionally punishing students who don't want anything from you.
- PopePompus 4mo ago
  I'm still alive, and college wasn't really sold primarily as a financial investment when I attended in the 1970s.
bonoboTP 4mo ago
Even in the old times, including at medieval universities, most students weren't simply hobbyist curious gentlemen who studied it for idyllic leasure reasons, but people studied things to then get various jobs, teaching, administrative and clerical or legal work, etc.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

nerdsniper 4mo ago

> Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. Yes it was. This was the pitch for as long as Google has existed. The only relevant change from the early days of Google is that now you also need to go to a T20 school and GPA inflation has gone completely insane.

nekusar 4mo ago

[flagged]

npstr 4mo ago
Seems easy to counter all of this. I study at a German remote university, and they require, next to the front camera, a second camera to record the screen + hands and arms of the student while taking exams, and before the exam starts a complete video of the room, below desk areas, ears, etc. I don't see an angle how to reliably cheat in such conditions, and have seen nothing mentioned by any other student. So I would say it's up to the university if they want to allow fraud like that...they could easily stop it.
- nekusar 4mo ago
  In-ear Bluetooth earbud with TTS. There's also TI-84 mods that add esp32 and can hook up an LLM. There's always a defeat.
  - willis936 4mo ago
    Wow and I thought I was slick for programming routines for Maxwell's and coordinate transformations in my TI-84.
  - npstr 4mo ago
    ears have to be shown to camera to confirm no devices inside own calculator not allowed, there is one provided by the software that must be used
- 05 4mo ago
  Second stationary camera recording the screen meaning you just need to replace the screen with the virtual screen in the footage you send as the secondary camera feed, easy for a static camera because it’s an affine transform with fixed parameters. If you don’t wave your arms in a way where they overlap the screen region then it’s ridiculously easy, otherwise don’t forget to release the ‘cheating on’ foot pedal before doing that.
overtone1000 4mo ago
If one of these clients of yours became an engineer, doctor, or lawyer, would you want their services for yourself or your family?
- lstodd 4mo ago
  if someone shows that kind of dedication to engineering, and make no mistake, this is engineering, I would certainly hire them at least as an apprentice. one can settle into a doctor or lawyer career some time later. one can't learn to think out of the box on a whim.
Aurornis 4mo ago
I think we're headed into a world where remote degrees have little value for this reason. Universities which have remote or take-home exams won't be far behind. Which sadly only makes it more of a rich kids' game, because the name-brand universities become the only ones that can be trusted. You see an out-of-state university that isn't a household name on someone's resume and you can't tell if it's one where students are monitored or if it's just a place where people pay a lot of money to transfer questions and results back and forth from ChatGPT. I think we're also going to see a lot of people crash out of college halfway through when they start their academic career cheating, then get hit with a dose of reality when they encounter classes that require in-person, monitored work. If this happens 2-3 years into college, the student isn't going to quickly catch up. They're going to crash out. I don't think this is having the effect you think it does.
- s5300 4mo ago
  [dead]

thaumasiotes 4mo ago

> Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. Assuming the person you're talking to is still alive, this isn't true. > The honor system is idyllic and requires idyllic circumstances: people who pursue education for no reason other than curiosity or self improvement. This isn't true either; if your student body consists of only those people, you don't need any system at all. There is no point in even notionally punishing students who don't want anything from you.

PopePompus 4mo ago
I'm still alive, and college wasn't really sold primarily as a financial investment when I attended in the 1970s.

bonoboTP 4mo ago

Even in the old times, including at medieval universities, most students weren't simply hobbyist curious gentlemen who studied it for idyllic leasure reasons, but people studied things to then get various jobs, teaching, administrative and clerical or legal work, etc.