3 ms·

The Americans may ban the use of the Chinese models in America. But like the Chinese car ban, everyone else will use them.

lenerdenator 3mo ago
That's not necessarily a good thing for everyone else, mind. Yes, you get your free model, but the cost of this is not developing your own capability and tying your fate to a country which may or may not have your best interests as a nation in mind. This is just the deindustrialization that occurred in my home region (the American Midwest) playing out on a global scale in different sectors. It was originally driven by the Japanese, who, to their credit, acted more as partners than competition. Eventually that desire for larger margins went to China, and now you basically can't build anything of consequence without at least some Chinese parts, because there's "no economic case" for it. This means that you have to play Beijing's game if you want access to any sort of modern market. You see this happening with Volkswagen's restructuring, next you'll see it with non-American, non-Chinese AI.
- singpolyma3 3mo ago
  It's not really the same because we already have the model. If China stopped letting us have it tomorrow I'd doesn't matter because... We have it already
- chillfox 3mo ago
  So... how's that any different from using American stuff for those of us in the rest of the world? Over the last decade, the US has been way more unreliable than China. There's been a near constant negative impact from the US doing something. At least with China, we are very good at winning trade wars with them here in Australia.
  - lenerdenator 3mo ago
    You might feel differently if you were a Filipino or Vietnamese fisherman whose family relied on the income from the stocks of the South China Sea, or a Uighur person living in Western China, or a Ukrainian soldier who has to deal with drones built with Chinese components, or a democracy advocate in Hong Kong, or arguably, a person who had plans for 2020-2021. Or, on a more local note, an Australian automotive worker who worked for a company that figured out 10 years ago that they wouldn't be able to pay him a decent wage, compete with the then-upcoming Chinese EVs, and remain profitable.
    - Paradigm2020 3mo ago
      You might feel different if you're a palestinian who's getting american bombs dropped on him, or an afghani collateral damage or... There is no good guys in general, and whataboutism and making the scope bigger doesn't help. The thing is that if the models you are building on are open source whether hosted on chinese / american / whatever service at least give you an option to switch provider easier vs a fable / chatgpt 5.6 that gets banned for none americans etc... 2 years ago america would have had the branding/perception advantage but right now that is well and truly gone...
      - lenerdenator 3mo ago
        > palestinian who's getting american bombs dropped on him So far as I know, there have not been any offensive American operations in the West Bank or Gaza. Do you have sources for any? > There is no good guys in general, and whataboutism and making the scope bigger doesn't help. The thing is that if the models you are building on are open source whether hosted on chinese / american / whatever service at least give you an option to switch provider easier vs a fable / chatgpt 5.6 that gets banned for none americans etc... Then it'd make far more sense to use a native open-source AI project than to use Chinese AI. Personally, I've been looking into Mistral AI for my own uses. > 2 years ago america would have had the branding/perception advantage but right now that is well and truly gone... Hardly. Let's not pretend that much of the world, particularly Europe, hasn't had a long and storied history of staring down its nose at Americans. At a certain point you just stop caring, regardless of your political persuasion.
        Paradigm2020 3mo ago
        1. I said American bombs. I didn't say dropped by American pilots. But provided, directly by the USA to Israel. 2. The whole idea is that open source means you don't have to care about "native". Look up nginx for a great example. 3. America from ww1 ish, definitely after ww2 and until about 2005/10 had a very very good reputation in most of Europe. The obama years gave it a bump up as well So basically for about 80-90% of the last 100yrs.
    - 3mo ago
hedora 3mo ago
Technically speaking, Chinese cars have not been banned. They are subject to a 100% tariff. They’d still be price competitive, but the manufacturers haven’t bothered jumping through the regulatory hoops. I’ll happily pay a 100% tariff on open weight models, and there are no regulatory hurdles for them to jump through (yet).

lenerdenator 3mo ago

That's not necessarily a good thing for everyone else, mind. Yes, you get your free model, but the cost of this is not developing your own capability and tying your fate to a country which may or may not have your best interests as a nation in mind. This is just the deindustrialization that occurred in my home region (the American Midwest) playing out on a global scale in different sectors. It was originally driven by the Japanese, who, to their credit, acted more as partners than competition. Eventually that desire for larger margins went to China, and now you basically can't build anything of consequence without at least some Chinese parts, because there's "no economic case" for it. This means that you have to play Beijing's game if you want access to any sort of modern market. You see this happening with Volkswagen's restructuring, next you'll see it with non-American, non-Chinese AI.

singpolyma3 3mo ago
It's not really the same because we already have the model. If China stopped letting us have it tomorrow I'd doesn't matter because... We have it already
chillfox 3mo ago
So... how's that any different from using American stuff for those of us in the rest of the world? Over the last decade, the US has been way more unreliable than China. There's been a near constant negative impact from the US doing something. At least with China, we are very good at winning trade wars with them here in Australia.
- lenerdenator 3mo ago
  You might feel differently if you were a Filipino or Vietnamese fisherman whose family relied on the income from the stocks of the South China Sea, or a Uighur person living in Western China, or a Ukrainian soldier who has to deal with drones built with Chinese components, or a democracy advocate in Hong Kong, or arguably, a person who had plans for 2020-2021. Or, on a more local note, an Australian automotive worker who worked for a company that figured out 10 years ago that they wouldn't be able to pay him a decent wage, compete with the then-upcoming Chinese EVs, and remain profitable.
  - Paradigm2020 3mo ago
    You might feel different if you're a palestinian who's getting american bombs dropped on him, or an afghani collateral damage or... There is no good guys in general, and whataboutism and making the scope bigger doesn't help. The thing is that if the models you are building on are open source whether hosted on chinese / american / whatever service at least give you an option to switch provider easier vs a fable / chatgpt 5.6 that gets banned for none americans etc... 2 years ago america would have had the branding/perception advantage but right now that is well and truly gone...
    - lenerdenator 3mo ago
      > palestinian who's getting american bombs dropped on him So far as I know, there have not been any offensive American operations in the West Bank or Gaza. Do you have sources for any? > There is no good guys in general, and whataboutism and making the scope bigger doesn't help. The thing is that if the models you are building on are open source whether hosted on chinese / american / whatever service at least give you an option to switch provider easier vs a fable / chatgpt 5.6 that gets banned for none americans etc... Then it'd make far more sense to use a native open-source AI project than to use Chinese AI. Personally, I've been looking into Mistral AI for my own uses. > 2 years ago america would have had the branding/perception advantage but right now that is well and truly gone... Hardly. Let's not pretend that much of the world, particularly Europe, hasn't had a long and storied history of staring down its nose at Americans. At a certain point you just stop caring, regardless of your political persuasion.
      - Paradigm2020 3mo ago
        1. I said American bombs. I didn't say dropped by American pilots. But provided, directly by the USA to Israel. 2. The whole idea is that open source means you don't have to care about "native". Look up nginx for a great example. 3. America from ww1 ish, definitely after ww2 and until about 2005/10 had a very very good reputation in most of Europe. The obama years gave it a bump up as well So basically for about 80-90% of the last 100yrs.
  - 3mo ago

hedora 3mo ago

Technically speaking, Chinese cars have not been banned. They are subject to a 100% tariff. They’d still be price competitive, but the manufacturers haven’t bothered jumping through the regulatory hoops. I’ll happily pay a 100% tariff on open weight models, and there are no regulatory hurdles for them to jump through (yet).