4 ms·

It funny to see the community here expects the human body to be treated like a deterministic function: for input X expect output Y - and that transfers to diagn

It funny to see the community here expects the human body to be treated like a deterministic function: for input X expect output Y - and that transfers to diagnosis - people expect to receive the same diagnosis from different specialists for the same issue. Given human body complexity, the diagnosis is a compound output of the experience, knowledge gained throughout the career and diagnosis methods/equipment, the title (like Dr) is a certification imposed by the state so its "safe" to let people practice since they passed "the bar" - but that doesn't imply everyone will be treating the same. Some specialists update their knowledge monthly, some yearly and some don't do it at all, there are so many variables in play here (geo, politics, even weather haha). Having said that, choosing the specialist is really important, getting opinions about their practice and their speciality, you can only maximize your chance of getting the right diagnosis, but don't expect to get it right just because somebody is called a Dr.

b800h 4mo ago
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that medicine is inherently fallible and therefore AI is more likely to make a good diagnosis - particularly a cluster of specialist AIs?
- mrlongroots 4mo ago
  Yeah I think the OP is muddling the point by conflating "physician's version of the diagnosis" with "The Diagnosis". There is absolutely one "The Diagnosis". Human body is a machine, albeit a very complex one, and all measurement sources have noise. But they are all measuring one reality, and if there is a problem, there should be one explanation that all measurements align with. They can be noisy but can never be conflicting (instrument error notwithstanding). Physicians' ability to arrive at "The Diagnosis" would vary, but it does not mean one does not exist. I am not sure if characterizing human body as derministic or not is relevant here.
  - piterrro 3mo ago
    I think „the diagnosis” is over simplification and lots of professionals would disagree that there’s always a single one. As a patient your goal is to eliminate the symptoms of whatever is going on in your system. Often times there could be many reasons for it and only curing one can help you already. The diagnosis is a help tool to choose the roght curation method. Thus, chasing the „right” diagnosis (whatever that is?) is pointless, as it only the outcome (reducing symptoms, stopping the damage) can tell you if the diagnosis was right, but not the only one right.
    - mrlongroots 3mo ago
      > I think „the diagnosis” is over simplification and lots of professionals would disagree that there’s always a single one. "The Diagnosis" does not mean "one root cause". Situation: my car has some unexplained vibrations. 1. Mechanic A says that it is the engine mounts 2. Mechanic B says that it is some weirdness in how the exhaust assembly is hanging to the underbody 3. Mechanic C says that it is just my wife farting I replace engine mounts and 40% of the problem is reduced. I then drive without my wife and the remaining 60% is solved. "The Diagnosis" was: 40% mounts, 60% wife, 0% exhaust. There is always one "The Diagnosis".
      - exmadscientist 3mo ago
        > There is always one "The Diagnosis". No, that is not true at all. This is a kind of thinking a lot of programmers fall prey to. The real world, outside of code, is a very fuzzy and inherently analog place. There is very rarely one in any complex system having a complex problem needing a complex solution. At some point even the definition of diagnosis gets fuzzy. The best demonstration of this in medicine is probably the DSM-5. What, really, is the difference between Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder? Can they overlap? (Yes.) How do you treat them? (It's not easy.) What about depression: how do you tell if someone has Major Depressive Disorder or Bipolar Depression? (Again: not easy.) In some circumstances the only way to tell the difference between the two is what drugs work: if antidepressants help, it's Major Depression; if mood stabilizers help, it's Bipolar Depression. It's kind of odd to define a One True Diagnosis by "well we fixed it this way, so it must have been that", with no other way to do it, isn't it? (What if both work? What if one works for a while, then the other works? What if treatment with antidepressants induces bipolar (hypo)mania? All of those happen!) And that's just a few examples.
charles_f 3mo ago
> It funny to see the community here expects the human body to be treated like a deterministic function In a community largely made of people whose job it is to produce such functions, I'd say it's to be expected
- KingMob 3mo ago
  It's funny (and a little depressing), because HN routinely assumes that their world view, and thus, their domain expertise, transfers. There's no shortage of tech people convinced they deeply understand law, medicine, philosophy, etc. despite never having read much on the topics.
  - bpicolo 3mo ago
    The internet at large is full of armchair experts, it's not just a tech thing.
    - nozzlegear 3mo ago
      People in tech have particularly big armchairs though.
  - johnwalkr 3mo ago
    Most of my "favorited" comments on here are by software people with confident yet incorrect statements (usually by way of vastly underestimating complexity) about one of my domains of expertise. I can't find it but one of the greatest show HN was a blog post about someone who was annoyed by his inconsistent shower temperature control. From memory, he spent a full weekend adjusting it, taking measurements, making graphs, and proposed "next steps" about prototyping better temperature control with microcontrollers and servo and pontificated about developing a product, of course controlled by software. He skipped the part where a bit of research leads you to the already common "thermostatic mixing valve".

b800h 4mo ago

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that medicine is inherently fallible and therefore AI is more likely to make a good diagnosis - particularly a cluster of specialist AIs?

mrlongroots 4mo ago
Yeah I think the OP is muddling the point by conflating "physician's version of the diagnosis" with "The Diagnosis". There is absolutely one "The Diagnosis". Human body is a machine, albeit a very complex one, and all measurement sources have noise. But they are all measuring one reality, and if there is a problem, there should be one explanation that all measurements align with. They can be noisy but can never be conflicting (instrument error notwithstanding). Physicians' ability to arrive at "The Diagnosis" would vary, but it does not mean one does not exist. I am not sure if characterizing human body as derministic or not is relevant here.
- piterrro 3mo ago
  I think „the diagnosis” is over simplification and lots of professionals would disagree that there’s always a single one. As a patient your goal is to eliminate the symptoms of whatever is going on in your system. Often times there could be many reasons for it and only curing one can help you already. The diagnosis is a help tool to choose the roght curation method. Thus, chasing the „right” diagnosis (whatever that is?) is pointless, as it only the outcome (reducing symptoms, stopping the damage) can tell you if the diagnosis was right, but not the only one right.
  - mrlongroots 3mo ago
    > I think „the diagnosis” is over simplification and lots of professionals would disagree that there’s always a single one. "The Diagnosis" does not mean "one root cause". Situation: my car has some unexplained vibrations. 1. Mechanic A says that it is the engine mounts 2. Mechanic B says that it is some weirdness in how the exhaust assembly is hanging to the underbody 3. Mechanic C says that it is just my wife farting I replace engine mounts and 40% of the problem is reduced. I then drive without my wife and the remaining 60% is solved. "The Diagnosis" was: 40% mounts, 60% wife, 0% exhaust. There is always one "The Diagnosis".
    - exmadscientist 3mo ago
      > There is always one "The Diagnosis". No, that is not true at all. This is a kind of thinking a lot of programmers fall prey to. The real world, outside of code, is a very fuzzy and inherently analog place. There is very rarely one in any complex system having a complex problem needing a complex solution. At some point even the definition of diagnosis gets fuzzy. The best demonstration of this in medicine is probably the DSM-5. What, really, is the difference between Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder? Can they overlap? (Yes.) How do you treat them? (It's not easy.) What about depression: how do you tell if someone has Major Depressive Disorder or Bipolar Depression? (Again: not easy.) In some circumstances the only way to tell the difference between the two is what drugs work: if antidepressants help, it's Major Depression; if mood stabilizers help, it's Bipolar Depression. It's kind of odd to define a One True Diagnosis by "well we fixed it this way, so it must have been that", with no other way to do it, isn't it? (What if both work? What if one works for a while, then the other works? What if treatment with antidepressants induces bipolar (hypo)mania? All of those happen!) And that's just a few examples.

charles_f 3mo ago

> It funny to see the community here expects the human body to be treated like a deterministic function In a community largely made of people whose job it is to produce such functions, I'd say it's to be expected

KingMob 3mo ago
It's funny (and a little depressing), because HN routinely assumes that their world view, and thus, their domain expertise, transfers. There's no shortage of tech people convinced they deeply understand law, medicine, philosophy, etc. despite never having read much on the topics.
- bpicolo 3mo ago
  The internet at large is full of armchair experts, it's not just a tech thing.
  - nozzlegear 3mo ago
    People in tech have particularly big armchairs though.
- johnwalkr 3mo ago
  Most of my "favorited" comments on here are by software people with confident yet incorrect statements (usually by way of vastly underestimating complexity) about one of my domains of expertise. I can't find it but one of the greatest show HN was a blog post about someone who was annoyed by his inconsistent shower temperature control. From memory, he spent a full weekend adjusting it, taking measurements, making graphs, and proposed "next steps" about prototyping better temperature control with microcontrollers and servo and pontificated about developing a product, of course controlled by software. He skipped the part where a bit of research leads you to the already common "thermostatic mixing valve".