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> Then, probably 15 years ago, they decided to give everyone a little raise, based on how much on-call work they did in the previous year, then ended the extra

> Then, probably 15 years ago, they decided to give everyone a little raise, based on how much on-call work they did in the previous year, then ended the extra payment for on-call. Anyone who was hired for, or moved into, a position that required on-call work got nothing and continues to get nothing. If Alex was previously on-call from time to time and got a raise to account for that typical amount of on-call, it sounds like you think that's fair? (It does sound fair to me.) Then, Bailey is hired at the same exact pay as Alex and also has to occasionally be on-call. Is Bailey truly "getting nothing"? Is Alex's pay fair and Bailey's identical pay unfair? I don't think so. If you want to pass a law that requires employers to divide up pay differently than they currently do, that's totally fine; in some corner cases, it will result in a net pay increase for lower-paid employees.

al_borland 4mo ago
Over 15 years it all gets lost. When they made the change, I was on a team that didn’t do on-call, because we were 24x7, so our pay remained the same. Eventually I got a new role, also without on-call. One day the boss thought it would be a good idea if we start doing on-call support. There was no pay adjustment for this, no new job I applied for where on-call was part of the deal I signed up for. It just happened. It could be called an edge case, but when the on-call pay is built into the base salary, it creates the expectation that a person is never off the clock and no time is truly their own. It also removes the incentive to minimize on-call work.
- sokoloff 4mo ago
  It gets lost in both directions, though. If you get paid 100 total units now for the value you bring to your company, how do you know that you wouldn’t get 95 units base and 5 units of on-call for the identical value that you create?
  - al_borland 4mo ago
    That works as a thought experiment. Though I think someone getting 5 units for on-call will be less annoyed by on-call than someone only getting their base pay, even if it all shakes out to be at the same at the end of the day. With the 5 units, if they work more, they get more. With base pay only, every time that phone rings their hourly rate drops. It may just be optics, but optics make a difference.
    - sokoloff 4mo ago
      Even that scenario works in both directions (as always). Engineering a system that doesn’t require off-hours work comes with a financial penalty to the team members if there’s explicitly segregated on-call pay. Write a good system and your pay drops to 95 units.
      - al_borland 4mo ago
        That’s true. I suppose I’ve worked in a martyr culture for so long it’s hard to see. I do everything I can to avoid getting called, and make sure if I do get called on something that it never happens again. Most don’t do that, they just brag about being up until 3am working. I sometimes start to feel guilty for not doing that anymore, but it’s usually their own fault.

al_borland 4mo ago

Over 15 years it all gets lost. When they made the change, I was on a team that didn’t do on-call, because we were 24x7, so our pay remained the same. Eventually I got a new role, also without on-call. One day the boss thought it would be a good idea if we start doing on-call support. There was no pay adjustment for this, no new job I applied for where on-call was part of the deal I signed up for. It just happened. It could be called an edge case, but when the on-call pay is built into the base salary, it creates the expectation that a person is never off the clock and no time is truly their own. It also removes the incentive to minimize on-call work.

sokoloff 4mo ago
It gets lost in both directions, though. If you get paid 100 total units now for the value you bring to your company, how do you know that you wouldn’t get 95 units base and 5 units of on-call for the identical value that you create?
- al_borland 4mo ago
  That works as a thought experiment. Though I think someone getting 5 units for on-call will be less annoyed by on-call than someone only getting their base pay, even if it all shakes out to be at the same at the end of the day. With the 5 units, if they work more, they get more. With base pay only, every time that phone rings their hourly rate drops. It may just be optics, but optics make a difference.
  - sokoloff 4mo ago
    Even that scenario works in both directions (as always). Engineering a system that doesn’t require off-hours work comes with a financial penalty to the team members if there’s explicitly segregated on-call pay. Write a good system and your pay drops to 95 units.
    - al_borland 4mo ago
      That’s true. I suppose I’ve worked in a martyr culture for so long it’s hard to see. I do everything I can to avoid getting called, and make sure if I do get called on something that it never happens again. Most don’t do that, they just brag about being up until 3am working. I sometimes start to feel guilty for not doing that anymore, but it’s usually their own fault.