4 ms·

The issue is that the outcome is the same: whether the Parliament is made up of angels or not, the dealings of the Commission and Council affect the Member Stat

The issue is that the outcome is the same: whether the Parliament is made up of angels or not, the dealings of the Commission and Council affect the Member States anyway.

munksbeer 3mo ago
The Council is the member states. The Commission are their appointed civil service and work on whatever agenda is set by the Council (the member states). Almost everything people complain about coming out of "the EU" originates in the national elected governments. About the only ones actually protecting the people of the MEPs (the elected EU MPs). They keep shutting this sort of stuff down, and then some member state (mostly Denmark it seems) finds a way to resurrect it again, and again, and again. They only need to succeed once.
- constantius 3mo ago
  I don't disagree with this: I'm saying that unless the power is of the Council and Commission is restrained, all the goodwill of the Parliament is an uphill battle and all people of the Member States are subjected to the corruption of unelected people like Ursula von der Leyden or of (temporarily?) problematic policies of some of the Member States' governments (like Denmark on Chat Control).
  - munksbeer 3mo ago
    You can't restrain the power of the Council. The Council is the member states. What you're proposing would take power away from the member states and hand it to, who? People already think the EU is undemocratic, imagine after that. The main problem is that people still do not understand how the EU works. They don't understand that almost everything comes from the direction the member states push from the Council. And in fact, I think the member states like it that way, or why else wouldn't they educate people more?
    - constantius 3mo ago
      > hand it to, who? To the people. There are many ways to restrain the Council that'd make the EU more democratic: enforce more/full transparency into the Council's decision-making, expand the powers of the Parliament (making the Council into the upper house basically), enforce the Spitzenkandidat method for appointing the EC President, allow referenda on major issues to bypass the Council. None of these is perfect, but they would streamline the democratic processes within the EU by lessening the role of the Council as intermediary. I agree that the Council themselves would never allow that however.

The issue is that the outcome is the same: whether the Parliament is made up of angels or not, the dealings of the Commission and Council affect the Member States anyway.

munksbeer 3mo ago

The Council is the member states. The Commission are their appointed civil service and work on whatever agenda is set by the Council (the member states). Almost everything people complain about coming out of "the EU" originates in the national elected governments. About the only ones actually protecting the people of the MEPs (the elected EU MPs). They keep shutting this sort of stuff down, and then some member state (mostly Denmark it seems) finds a way to resurrect it again, and again, and again. They only need to succeed once.

constantius 3mo ago
I don't disagree with this: I'm saying that unless the power is of the Council and Commission is restrained, all the goodwill of the Parliament is an uphill battle and all people of the Member States are subjected to the corruption of unelected people like Ursula von der Leyden or of (temporarily?) problematic policies of some of the Member States' governments (like Denmark on Chat Control).
- munksbeer 3mo ago
  You can't restrain the power of the Council. The Council is the member states. What you're proposing would take power away from the member states and hand it to, who? People already think the EU is undemocratic, imagine after that. The main problem is that people still do not understand how the EU works. They don't understand that almost everything comes from the direction the member states push from the Council. And in fact, I think the member states like it that way, or why else wouldn't they educate people more?
  - constantius 3mo ago
    > hand it to, who? To the people. There are many ways to restrain the Council that'd make the EU more democratic: enforce more/full transparency into the Council's decision-making, expand the powers of the Parliament (making the Council into the upper house basically), enforce the Spitzenkandidat method for appointing the EC President, allow referenda on major issues to bypass the Council. None of these is perfect, but they would streamline the democratic processes within the EU by lessening the role of the Council as intermediary. I agree that the Council themselves would never allow that however.